Rereading this novel, we return to the issue of grievances on Hermes. I have commented further on that earlier post.
Poul Anderson makes the points that societies differ and that opinions about them also differ. He gets us to sympathise with the Hermetian ruling class while also showing that their system can bear a great deal of reform. That unequal voting system, one vote for a Follower, ten for a member of the Kindred, is grotesque. The Grand Duchess refers to what she calls:
"'...the self-pity of the Liberation Front.'" (p. 193)
A loaded phrase. How about: "self-pity" of Hermetians under Baburite occupation? (No. I would not use such a phrase.)
My idea of a society that we can work towards is one in which the purpose of education is to develop the full potential of each individual both for their benefits and for that of society as a whole. The Duchy of Hermes is a stratified society whose class structures impede any such purpose.
Yet again, none of this justifies Benoni Strang's treason.
26 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
All societies, without exception, are going to be inevitably stratified. The mere fact all humans, without exception, are going to be different in abilities, talents, vices, virtues, inclinations, circumstances of life, etc., ineluctably means there will be social stratification. Trying to level down everybody to the same level is impossible and will result only in tyranny.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
We should not try to whittle everyone down to a lowest level. Nor should we have hereditary socioeconomic class distinctions as on Hermes.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I don't care, because what matters in any society or state is what its people believes and accepts is legitimate.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
But many Hermetians increasingly saw it as illegitimate.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
And wise leaders, in such a situation, will try to adjust the State to fit new realities while trying to preserve as much as possible of the older forms.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Only if the older forms are worth preserving.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
And they will be in many cases, esp. in regimes which has lasted for centuries and governed not too badly.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
That is all academic. All the formal class distinctions on Hermes should go. Differences of ability are not social forms and will remain, of course!
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
All societies, without exception, are going to have formal or de facto class distinctions. It's simply what humans are like and/or want to do. Also, it's better to leave some room open for human vanity and egotism. A knighthood or baronetcy is a cheaper means or rewarding good service than a fat pension.* Esp. if persons so rewarded are gratified by such honors.
Ad astra! Sean
*In Stirling's Emberverse series I recalled how Charles II rewarded a Loyalist Loring after the Restoration with a baronetcy precisely because it was cheaper than using money.
Sean,
But on Hermes we are talking about different numbers of votes or no votes and very different access to education.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Imo, still trivial, esp. when you remember how Travers did not have to pay taxes. And no effort was made to prevent Travers from getting advanced education if they really wanted it.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
But they were still having important decisions made for them. Increasing numbers wanted to have the responsibility of deciding whether to be taxed, by how much and what for.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
And that, of course, opened the way for power hungry politicians dreaming up excuses for how to spend and waste the money those new, "democratic" taxes raised for the State. Which has ineluctably led, in the real world, to a crushing bureaucracy, burdensome national debt, and more and more incompetent gov'ts!
Beware of what you want--you might very well dislike what you get!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
But none of that is the point. You cannot dictate to people in advance that they should be content to just not pay taxes. People have to decide what they want to do and, of course, to change the state further if and when it becomes oppressive.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Except the Grand Duchy was not oppressive. It's gov't, by our jaded standards, was very mild. And the constitutional arrangements of Hermes that we see in MIRKHEIM had lasted for centuries.
Compared to all the tyrannical or bungling gov'ts we have in the real world makes me think most people would be overjoyed to have a regime like that of Hermes.
Ad astra! Sean
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
We really do keep speaking right past each other. When I wrote "oppressive," I was referring to what you had just written about crushing taxes and bureaucracies, not to Hermes.
However, many people on Hermes did want change so there had to be change.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Because I get so suspicious of people who loudly claim "I speak for da peepul"! Ever since the French Revolution such persons have so often been nothing but power hungry hacks, demagogues, or tyrants (actual or would be).
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
"The people" can have grievances and can express themselves. I have seen it.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I have also seen far too many demagogic defenders/excusers of tyranny and terrorism.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Sure but what is the point of this discussion? I support the people, not the demagogues.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
What good is that if the demagogues and tyranny excusers are the ones so often winning out?
Ad astra! Sean
Because we can resist them and they don't always win.
Kaor, Paul!
And I have seen so many of those "resisters" actually being the ones assisting real tyrants coming to power! One example being the fools who helped that thug Khomeini to overthrow the Shah of Iran in 1978-79. Mohammed Pahlavi was no saint, but he was vastly better than the tyrant Khomeini and his theocratic Islamic Republic!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
The Shah was a dictator with a secret police. He expelled all political opponents so that the only place where people could come together to plan resistance was in the mosque. The theocracy is a direct result of his rule.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
What strikes me is how often people who think like that don't get it, an imperfect or bad gov't can be replaced too easily by something far worse! And exactly that has happened over and over and over and over. So I disagree.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Is it far worse? Anyway, it would have been wrong to stay with the "no saint" Shah and the struggle continues in that entire region, not just in each country considered in isolation.
Paul.
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