Their names change. We recognize McCready as Hanno but what do we make of Oktai Saygun, making his first appearance to us here?
Yet another cat and mouse conversation. When pressed by McCready, Saygun very guardedly tells a story in the style of H.G. Wells. Indeed, after McCready has at last openly declared his immortality, it remains conceivable, although improbable I suppose, that Saygun merely humours him by inventing a fiction about a record-keeper, originally of the late Roman Republic, who has found his niche and, other things being equal, would quietly and contentedly remain in that niche, lower to middle level government bureaucracy, not literally forever of course but certainly for an even longer time than he has already done. At the end, they exchange business cards, nothing more. Hanno has found one more, it seems, but has failed to recruit him. The plot moves very slowly indeed. As at the end of his conversation with the Cardinal, Hanno is more or less back where he had started. In Chapter XIV, he found Wanderer but lost Rufus.
The Eight will all get together later in the twentieth century but, before that, Chapter XVII, will be about Svoboda defending Stalingrad. At least that is how I remember it.
Having judged that Flora is the best immortal, I now have to add that this Roman is the most boring. But the main point is that they are all different. And here is an appropriate quotation.
16 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
Exactly! Saygun insisted on following his own path, not feeling any strong need to ally with McCready. I would also point out how Saygun stressed he never used his civil service connections to harm the states he served, which indicates how he too had some principles.
Ad astra! Sean
In fact, the early Roman Empire didn't have much bureaucracy -- and what it did have was intensely personalistic, bound to the politically prominent by Roman patronage ties. In fact, most of the early Imperial administration (outside the military) was done by household slaves and freedmen of Augustus. That pattern continued for some time, with equestrians and others getting into the story only in the 2nd century.
A staggering amount of historical information.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Dang! Then Anderson erred in having Patulcius entering the bureaucracy of the Late Republic, because such a thing did not really exist then, except in the rudimentary sense you described. A formalized civil service was only taking shape in the second century AD.
At best, to rationalize Anderson's text, we have to assume Patulcius was part of the entourages of proconsuls sent out to govern provinces.
Ad astra! Sean
Or we just have to say that that timeline is different from ours.
Sean, Paul: yeah, proconsuls (or legates, for Imperial provinces rather than Senatorial ones) did have entourages which included what we'd call civil-service functions.
If you look at it in detail, a lot of provincial administration was delegated to the army, with soldiers on 'detached service' at the HQ's of provincial governors.
The Roman Army -did- have a bureaucracy and kept very careful records -- where they've survived (Egypt, for example) you can follow soldiers from assignment to assignment with their personal files.
Note that things changed after the third-century crisis and the 'reforms' of Diocletian and Constantine (which in terms of civil government generally just didn't work well), but in its heyday the Roman Empire was -highly- decentralized.
Most day-to-day government, including most law enforcement, was by local cities, councils and so forth, which were run by traditional local elites.
The Imperial provincial governors mainly supervised and acted as a court of last resort.
The truly centralized institution was the army (and its other functions, like road-building and public works), with tax-collection a distant second.
Kaor, Paul and Mr. Stirling!
Paul: That is one possibility.
Mr. Stirling: Many thanks for these mini essays. Esp. the points about the roles played by the entourages of governors, the army bureaucracy, and local elites. I only wish more of those Roman records had survived, not just the maddening fragments we have.
I do think Diocletian had some good ideas in his reorganization of the Empire. Such as dividing too large provinces into smaller provinces, and separating civil and military administration from each other.
Ad astra! Sean
Mini-essays indeed.
Sean: Diocletian tried to get the army out of the Emperor-making business by getting the Roman upper classes out of it.
In the 2nd century, most senior centurions and all legionary legates and tribunes were equestrians or of senatorial rank.
He ended that, which had deleterious consequences down the road and -didn't- make it any less likely to elevate generals to Imperial rank.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
But, after the anarchy of the Third Century Crisis of the Empire, I do think Diocletian was right in deciding something had to be done. The problem was, as you said yourself, Rome had become a monarchy, but didn't have the right ideas/beliefs a stable monarchy needed. Diocletian at least tried, and I think his efforts did contribute to how and why the eastern half of the Empire survived for so long as the Eastern Roman Empire. That, incidentally, was basically Anderson's view as well, as he wrote in one of his letters to me.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean: yup. Nobody can really anticipate the results of their actions, historically speaking -- you can try and hope, but the dice roll.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
And that is why I respect Diocletian, because he tried to think thru the problems faced by the Empire--and find solutions for them.
Ad astra! Sean
Note that -'Republican- Romans actively disliked bureaucracy and tried to avoid it. This only gradually died down in the Empire's first two centuries.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Everybody dislikes bureaucracy, for many good reasons--springing from how imperfect and fallible all humans are. But complex societies needs civil services, as Aaron Snelund, of all people, discussed in some detail in THE REBEL WORLDS.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean: yup. By Marcus Aurelius' time the Romans did have a bureaucracy, but a bare-bones one, mostly directed at keeping the peace and paying for the army, and doing some public works (often managed by the Army).
Eg., by then the Imperial fiscus was managed by someone of Equestrian rank, and so was the Praetorian Guard's spy network which was the Empire's combined CIA and FBI. But they evolved from people who were buying supplies for the Army!
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