Brent proposes to take control of Envoy, terminate exploration at the black hole and return directly to Earth. He and his only ally, Cleland, have locked the rest of the crew in one part of the ship. Dayan comments:
"'If we get unruly, he can starve us into submission. My people learned long ago how that works.'" (p. 371)
They did. Suddenly the text is again directly relevant to the twentieth and twenty-first centuries and to current news.
24 comments:
Yeah, control of essentials is power.
Kaor, Paul!
I'm reminded, with disgust and contempt, of how the Hamas [expletives deleted] raped, tortured, starved, and killed many of the Jews they kidnapped!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
And of Israel blocking supplies into Gaza?
Hostages have been released that were not raped, tortured or starved.
Your disgust and contempt flow one way. Surely it is possible to discuss these issues without such extreme language? The situation is bad enough already.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
What you said about Israel "blocking" supplies to non-combatants is not true. And you should keep in mind how the Hamas scum looted a lot of those supplies for its own self serving purposes.
Not all of the victims kidnapped by the Hamas criminals were grossly abused? That was because Hamas grudgingly released those who made them look the least bad!
And I'm not forgetting that grotesque carnival in which Hamas (cowards hiding behind masks!) turned over the bodies of the murdered Bibac family to the Red Cross before howling mobs of Jew haters!
No excuses should be made for Hamas, they deserve only the utmost scorn and contempt possible.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I see it reported in the news that Israel has recently and more than once blocked supplies going into Gaza.
Please do not use the word "scum." It could be applied to some IDF members but it does not help. "Self serving" also applies across the board.
What is your evidence that some hostages were grossly abused? Have some hostages died because of Israel bombing? Israel detains many Palestinians without charging them or bringing them to trial. These are released in exchange for hostages.
Cowardly or prudent?
No excuses should be made for anyone who kills innocent civilians. "Scorn" and "contempt" are highly charged words and, if used, should certainly not be applied to just one side.
I hoped to draw attention to the relevance of Anderson's text to current affairs without plunging right into the worst aspects of those affairs.
Paul.
Kaor Paul!
Very well, re "scum." But that is now I will always regard those horrible creatures.
I sent you an article about that alleged "blocking" by Israel. Among other points Seth Mandel reminded readers there were times supplies could not be sent because of active military operations. Other times the "blocking" was because the shippers refused to provide the usual customs declarations.
The prisoners captured by Israel were never raped, tortured, starved, etc., by Israel. False equivalence.
Yes, cowardice. Honorable, real soldiers don't wear masks the way Hamas terrorists do.
I see far more justification for having only contempt and scorn for Hamas than I do for Israel.
I will keep in mind your comment about Anderson. But Hanny Dayan's comment immediately reminded me of Hamas' all too recent atrocities.
Ad astra! Sean
Hanny's reference to her people made me think of Israel now. We each view this from our own perspective.
"Horrible creatures" is no better. We are talking about human beings in conflict and I should not have to say although I do have to say that I do not excuse crimes committed by Hamas members or by anyone else.
Kaor, Paul!
I will never regard the agents of Hamas as anything but horrible and evil.
Ad astra! Sean
Well, evil's an opinion -- though I share Sean's opinion. But more broadly, the only thing I want to do with any member or supporter of Hamas is to kill them. They're a problem, and they won't be when they're all dead.
Sean,
There are those in Hamas who did not commit the atrocities that kicked all this off. There are those in Israel and the IDF who deny and/or mock Palestinian suffering. I have seen some sickening videos. A terrible conflict but not a situation that is helped by condemning just one side as "horrible and evil," especially not the side that is on the receiving end of most of the violence in Gaza and the West Bank. (But I think that it should have been possible to draw attention to the current relevance/resonance of a line in PA's text without getting drawn into taking sides and rehashing all the recriminations and condemnations.)
Paul.
I think that hate, any hate, has a negative impact on society and political discourse. Some of my anti-fascist comrades in Britain chant, "We hate Nazis!" I do not. I do stand confronting racists etc - with a solid line of police between us - while they shout abuse at our side. I can think of better ways to spend a Saturday afternoon but they have to be opposed and they become demoralized and fight among themselves when they are consistently outnumbered and are prevented from ruling the streets and intimidating those that they dislike. The only time one of them ran straight at me, the police had him down on the ground and arrested him before he had touched me. By my mere presence on that occasion, I contributed to getting that thug off our streets.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling and Paul!
Mr. Stirling: Absolutely! The Hamas should, every single one of them, be executed for the murderous criminals they are. I was reminded of what I read about Grotius' treatise on the laws of the sea, about pirates. He defined pirates as the outcasts and enemies of mankind, deserving only of being hunted down and executed.
Paul: I don't care if not all members of Hamas' terrorist bureaucracy took an active part in the 10/7 massacres. These criminals assented to the ends, goals, and means used by Hamas. And gleefully cheered on the slaughter. And I have no doubt they gloated over the agony and torture of the Jews who were kidnapped.
And those Israelis who mocked Gazans were not allowed to behave like the Hamas criminals. One side is better than the other, Israel, never Hamas. I will call the agents of Hamas as they are, horrible and evil. Also, Hamas started the war, they are the ones responsible for the violence Israel rightly struck back with.
I agree, fascists of both left and right should be opposed as peacefully as possible in a civilized nation like the UK. And that was possible only because of the existence of the State, with its means of coercion, the police, to forcefully check violence by anyone. Without the State only the strongest and most ruthless faction will rule.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Disagree.
Have hostages been tortured?
Hamas did not start this conflict (it did not start on 10/7) but has responded to it and Israel has, predictably, barbarously over-reacted to 10/7, killing thousands of women and children and flattening every home and hospital. Israel is not better. Your arguments are completely one-sided.
IDF soldiers do destroy and loot in Gaza.
We can work towards a society where all public officials are controllable and accountable and the need for state coercion decreases. That we are not in such a situation now is obvious but don't apply arguments from one situation to a completely different situation.
Paul.
In the West Bank, the IDF defends settlers dispossessing Palestinians.
(My post about the relevance of PA's text to current affairs was not meant to kick off recriminations of this sort.)
Sean,
My reference to "hate" was directed toward your use of terms like "contempt"! I could feel contempt towards some public figures and my list of contemptible figures would differ from yours but we still have to discuss the issues and negative emotions do not help.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Disagree, Hamas started the war, and seized power in Gaza after Israel evacuated that territory. And drove out their PLO rivals and enemies. I have no sympathy for the loathsome Hamas thugs.
The West Bank is a separate, different, and more complicated matter. And Israel has tried hard to come to reasonable terms with the PLO regime.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I thought Hamas won an election in Gaza. There are definitely loathsome IDF thugs. (But I would not have used such language.)
Why is the West Bank a separate matter? Settlers are driving out Palestinians there. How do reasonable terms come into that? This language remains completely one-sided.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul
No, Hamas seized power in Gaza using force and intimidation.
As for the West Bank, I sent you another article detailing how Bill Clinton, a Democrat, blamed the thug Arafat and his successor Abbas for the failure of the Camp David accords Ohmerts later efforts to make peace terms with Abbas.
Israel has been far better than those claiming to speak for Palestinians!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Hamas won an election, runs Gaza and is widely supported there. Settlers are dispossessing Palestinians and seizing land in the West Bank. We seem to have access to different sets of facts.
Your morality of warfare: if we are attacked, then the aggressor alone is morally responsible for any measures that we take, however disproportionate? I think that anyone who says that condemns himself, yet, unless I pause and draw attention to it, the exchange just continues with you sticking to the line that Israel is far better. It is a terrorist state.
Those claiming to speak for Palestinians! They speak for themselves.
Paul.
I have emailed a BBC report.
Are hostages tortured?
If two populations hate each other and want to kill each other, the best course is simply to separate them.
Eg., look at Greeks and Turks. From 1820 (the first Greek revolt against the Ottomans) to the 1920's after the Graeco-Turkish war, there was no time in which Greeks and Turks weren't killing or otherwise mistreating each other.
After the forced exchange of populations in the 1920's, there was profound peace.
The Greeks and Turks didn't stop hating each other, but they did stop fighting. They weren't in -contact- to any great extent.
Except in Cyprus, where British colonial power kept the old street-by-street and village-by-village mixture going.
As soon as British power weakened, they started killing each other again.
Until the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974. All the Greeks were expelled from the north, all the Turks from the south, and a fortified boundary put between.
Result? 51 years of profound peace.
"Good fences make good neighbors."
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
I agree, sometimes the least bad solution is a rigid separation of hostile populations who hate each other.
Ad astra! Sean
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