Ryerson:
"'...the body. That isn't important. What counts is the soul inside.'" (p. 82)
Sverdlov:
"'If the body's such a valueless piece of pork, and we'll all meet each other in the sweet bye and bye, and so on, why're you busting every gut you own to get back to your wife?'" (ibid.)
Loaded language in every word - although, if what Sverdlov means is that those who profess to believe in immortality do not in practice believe in it, then his point is valid. Once, in my early teens, I said that I would not mind if I died there and then and was asked by a parent if I really meant that. Of course I meant it. My head had been filled with the idea of the sweet bye and bye. What did they expect us to think?
What do we think of Ryerson's remark? The body is important because it is the vehicle of self-consciousness whether or not the latter is identified with an immortal immaterial soul. In fact, the preservation of the body is even more important if consciousness is mortal. The light from an electric bulb is valuable whether it is caused by an indwelling spirit or by a flow of electrons.
Whether Ryerson's talk of souls entails happy reunions in a hereafter is something to be discussed rather than assumed, then derided, by Sverdlov! But they are both under a lot of stress.
13 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
The orthodox Catholic view is that death was not desired by God but came to mankind as a result of Adam's sin. Also, as long as we live we are duty bound to take reasonable care for our health and bodies.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Human bodies would have been immortal if not for an action by the first man? I think that that flies in the face of all the scientific and other evidence.
Paul.
Might we really find unFallen races all of whose members are literally physically immortal?
Kaor, Paul!
Not if, as I believe, the supernatural, God, is actual and real. Nor does that contradict also accepting, as the Catholic Church does, evolution and an ancient Earth billions of years old. Meaning the Fall occurred uncounted eons ago.
Well, C.S. Lewis certainly thought it was possible there were unFallen non-human races. Possible, but I lean more to Fr. Axor's view in THE GAME OF EMPIRE, how all known oxygen breathing races Fallen. And, I would add, races which were not oxygen breathing.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
But why should they all fall?
Paul.
Will any empirical evidence count against such doctrines?
Kaor, Paul!
I agree we don't know if all other intelligent races have Fallen. It makes sense to think some have not Fallen, if not in our galaxy, then in others. The conservative pessimist (or realist!) in me makes me suspect many other races have Fallen and be in need of Redemption.
I see far more evidence supporting the Christian belief in the Fallen nature of mankind than not! All I have to do is look around (or inside myself) and I can find plenty of proofs showing how flawed, imperfect, prone to being quarrelsome and violent, etc., all of us can be. So my answer is No.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
We are prone to cooperating as well as to quarrelling. You emphasise the negative. I see this as evidence that we have risen from animality, not fallen from perfection.
By empirical evidence in this case, I meant possible contact with other intelligent species. How can you be confident that any that have not Fallen will be physically immortal? That would set them right against the evolutionary development of every other organic species. Life is temporary, local negative entropy.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Unconvincing, what you said about "cooperation." The demons in Hell cooperate in trying to bring about the run of all other beings. Terrorists cooperate perpetrating their atrocities. Gangsters cooperate trafficking in poisonous drugs and sex slaves, etc., etc.
I don't deny the existence of God and the supernatural. God, if He so wishes, can make immortal intelligent races which evolved to sentience, were tested, and did not Fall.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Fully convincing. Cooperation, centred in language, is central to humanity. Not quarrelsomeness. Even the Nazis had to cooperate to exterminate. Cooperation cannot be abolished without abolishing humanity. But the higher we are the lower we can fall. A bad man is worse than a bad animal. The evil of which we are capable shows the good of which we are capable.
How plausible is it that we will find unFallen and immortal races on other planets? All the evidence so far suggests that this is not how God, if He exists, works. He has given all things to time.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
You are tacitly conceding my point. The quality we call "cooperation" is a neutral thing, which can be used for either bad or good purposes.
I agree! God acts in time, and because He is not bound by time billions of years are as nothing to Him.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
What point am I conceding? Cooperation, not quarrelsomeness, is basic to humanity, therefore can be be used for great good or evil, not just evil.
Paul.
But, if God acts, then the evidence so far is that He acts by creating a universe in which everything, including every organism, is subject to entropy.
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