This remark by Tachwyr gives a very twentieth century/Cold War feel to the Terran-Merseian conflict. Insidious: the idea of Terran academics, clergy and journos "fed" by Merseian agencies. Might a phrase used in a lecture, sermon or news report have been written in Ardaig/Moscow? It is a relief no longer to read a stream of propaganda trying to persuade us that all was sweetness and light on the other side of the Iron Curtain. (This critique can come from the left as well as the right.)
Apart from this single point, I do not think that there is any other parallel between Terra-Merseia and US-USSR? In American future histories, the old Terrestrial issues are usually left behind in the twentieth century although the West falls in James Blish's Cities in Flight and the US and USSR merge into the CoDominium in Jerry Pournelle's future history.
28 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
Not just twentieth century, but also the 21st century, right now! Here I'm thinking of the disgusting lies and propaganda vomited out by the Hamas vermin after 10/7. Lots of academies, academics, journalists, and some clergy eagerly swallowed the Hamas lies. And don't forget all those disgusting and vile pro-Hamas demonstrations and riots!
The phenomenon Anderson cited in THE GAME OF EMPIRE is still real!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
You address a major current conflict and controversy. You must realize that many informed and intelligent people can present an alternative point of view that is based on interpretations of the facts, not on deliberate falsehoods ("lies")!
Paul.
When contemplating the ins and outs of the historical East-West Cold War in the 20th Century, and it's various proxy conflicts, Philip Klass' "The Liberation of Earth" offers some insight - and coming from a WW II US Army veteran, a little more of an informed opinion than (for example) - Heinlein and company.
Kaor, Paul!
Not in this case! There can be no legitimate defenses or "alternate views" of what the Hamas scum and its Iranian puppet masters have been doing and saying. The fact remains that from the very beginning of the 10/7 war many in the West has been all too eager to "feed" on pro-Hamas propaganda. Bluntly, we have been also seeing a huge outburst of antisemitism.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
You have got it wrong. You are assuming, not asking, what someone else thinks. Many people defend the violence neither of Hamas nor of Israel. To be anti-Zionist is not to be anti-semitic. I know the people involved. Many Jews are anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian but this is not reported.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I disagree. Honest media like NATIONAL REVIEW, THE AMERICAN, COMMENTARY, etc., have covered extensively the lies of Hamas/Iran. The fact still remains that "anti-Zionism" is a fig leaf covering antisemitism among many, but not all, on the left.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I disagree. There are other honest media. I can tell you without dishonesty that my fellow anti-Zionists in Lancaster, Preston, Manchester, London etc are not anti-semitic and are more consistent and active anti-racists than those who accuse them of anti-semitism only because of the Zionism issue. "...many, but not all, on the left..." is certainly untrue. We join with Jewish people on Holocaust Memorial Day. We oppose every neo-Nazi movement when it rears its head and can point to many such movements, NF, BNP, EDL etc, that have been driven back in Britain by our mass opposition.
The fact remains that anti-Zionism is opposition to a discriminatory state and is not any sort of fig leaf - unless those who make this accusation can somehow read thoughts that are never expressed in word or deed!
Paul.
I presume there are a multitude of SFF tales with "Zion's Friction" as a tagline?
Sean,
I will be in bed soon and will be incommunicado all or most of tomorrow. When discussing Palestine Solidarity demonstrations, you are talking to a participant so you really need to ask me some things, not just tell me things quoted from the media that you favour. When you say that something is a fact, I know from experience that it is not. If you tell me that my friends and comrades and I are anti-semitic, that is equivalent to me telling you that you are Protestant or atheist. That would be absurd. That is my point. Maybe we can find some common ground for discussion or maybe not.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I continue to disagree. You cannot possibly personally know everybody who calls himself anti-Zionist and who is or is not antisemitic. Like it or not there are leftists in the UK/US who are vicious antisemites. They are the ones I have such fury against!
Again, like it or not, "anti-Zionism" is code calling for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of the Jews. Because that is exactly what the Hamas scum and other fanatical Muslims say, and they mean it.
Compared to its savage and barbaric enemies, Israel is far less "discriminatory" than all its neighbors. Christians in almost all Muslim nations are oppressed far more harshly than anything Israel has been accused of doing. I did not mention Jews because they were all killed or driven out.
I do say it is a fact that many "anti-Zionists" in the US are Jew hating bigots. Leftists need to face up to their own antisemites.
Ad astra! Sean
I continue to disagree but will have to take most of this up tomorrow. Of course I don't know everybody. I have just come from a 300,000 Palestine Solidarity march. I was with local organizers whom I know well. For hours, I was surrounded by people, placards and slogans with no anti-semitism anywhere. The US's loyal watchdog in the oil-rich Middle East happens to be the Zionist state. For that reason only, we are smeared as anti-semitic. A historical accident. Eventually, Israel will cease to serve US interests. Then the funding, arming, support and propaganda will stop.
Like it or not, UK leftists are not vicious anti-semites.
-The destruction of a racist state, yes. The extermination of Jews, no.
Leftists do not have any anti-semites to face up to.
I think there is much more to be said but I have only had time to respond to particular points above.
The word "bigots" has plenty of applications in this context.
I have made sporadic points because my server is about to be switched off. I can say more tomorrow.
Sean,
Does the Hamas charter say BOTH destruction of Israel AND extermination of Jews?
"Israel...was born in 1948 through the ethnic cleansing of 13,000 Palestinians killed by Zionist terror, with over 700,000 Palestinians exiled from their homes and communities.
"Israel has been sustained through a range of apartheid practices, including over sixty racist laws affecting the Palestinian minority inside Israel's borders."
I quote from a broadsheet that I was handed yesterday. Is all of this factually incorrect?
To say that some other countries are worse is no defence of Israel!
The slogan, "Palestine will be free!" is misinterpreted to mean not freedom for everyone in Palestine but expulsion or extermination of Jews. It is cited as evidence of anti-semitism.
There are indeed Muslim anti-semites who want to exterminate Jews just as there extreme Zionists who want to drive out all Palestinians.
I suggest that my position is not anti-Jewish whereas yours does seem to be anti-Muslim.
Who are "enemies" of the US? Israel defends US strategic and economic interests in the Middle East. Do enemies of the US include those who want a single, secular, democratic Palestinian state that treats everyone within its borders with full equality? If those are "enemies," then the US needs to reassess its values.
Paul.
That slogan, more fully, is:
"From the river to the sea,
"Palestine will be free."
That means one state in that territory. That means the end of the present Israel, Palestinian Authority, settlements and Hamas regime in Gaza. That is interpreted as anti-semitic.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Wrong. Most of those Palestinians were "exiled" by their own choice, in many cases rejecting the urging of Israelis to stay. They expected the holy ghazis of Islam to soon exterminate the despised Jews. I have no sympathy for them, they made the choice to leave.
Compared to their enemies, Israeli crimes are far fewer and Israel has tried far harder to prevent them the Muslims.
That vile slogan, "from the water to the water Palestine will be free" is antisemitic. It means the destruction of Israel and extermination of the Jews. The horrors perpetrated by the Hamas scum on and after 10/7 shows that is exactly how they interpret it.
The enemies of the US are the regimes ruling Russia, China, Iran, N Korea. Plus their catspaws, clients, puppets, etc. Whatever their differences with each other they have a common interest in undermining and destroying the US. Fomenting chaos in the Near East is one means of achieving that goal.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
The exiles were voluntary? But what of all those killed? You can't just argue that Zionist killings are fewer than those of others! I am not trying to compare the two sides. Your argument becomes that Muslims are worse and becomes an anti-Muslim argument.
How is "Palestine will be free" vile and anti-semitic how does it mean extermination? There are certainly many people who chant it who do not mean that. You use "the destruction of Israel and extermination of Jews" as a single phrase. Does the Hamas charter include both parts of this phrase? Does the US want to undermine and destroy Russia etc? This inter-power conflict is the enemy of peace and humanity.
Palestinians do not protest simply because Iran foments them. Are there apartheid practices and racist laws affecting Palestinians inside Israel?
Paul.
Sean,
You cannot tell us what we mean by what we say! The destruction of the present British state would not automatically also mean the extermination of all people of British descent. You have not answered questions about the Hamas charter or about racist laws in Israel.
I do not defend Arab states or persist in ignoring that they too are part of the problem for their populations. I have heard recently that the US arms them as well.
I do complain about inter-power conflict. The US intervenes and wages wars. Does the US want to overthrow its rivals?
Paul.
Also, of course, the numbers killed when Israel was founded. It is hard to remember every point. Some just get forgotten. No solution can be found if all the complaints of the aggrieved are simply dismissed and laid at their own door.
The attempt to eradicate Hamas by bombarding Gaza and overkilling its residents, including so many children, cannot possibly succeed in ending all armed resistance to Israel. It can only perpetuate that resistance indefinitely - and will also perpetuate the massive peaceful protests against Israeli actions. As I have also said, those actions will end, if not before, when, in changed circumstances, the continued existence of Israel ceases to serve US foreign policy interests. Then all the arming, funding and support in the UN will be cut off.
Kaor, Paul!
Disagree. I sent you a link to a translation of the Hamas scum's "charter," and that document talks about destroying/obliterating Israel
Disagree. Hamas started the war with its 10/7 atrocities. Israel has every right to defend itself and strike back. You also overlook how Israel did not do that indiscriminately, giving "non-combatant" Gazans a chance to flee south along designated roads out of the declared war zone. Israel also refrained from striking at hospitals, despite the Hamas scum hiding in them.
I don't care about the rest of Gaza, not with the Hamas scum using it to wage war on Israel, giving it every right to bombard it.
And I reject those pro-Hamas demonstrations. Fortunately, there are just as many in support of Israel. I also deny Israel is racist.
You still don't understand, Russia and China wants to dominate the world. And, given how enfeebled Russia actually is, China will become the dominant partner. You may not like the Pax Americana, but a world dominated by China/Russia would be far nastier!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
But does destroying a state mean exterminating a people?
Israel is going way beyond defending itself.
I do not overlook anything. People have been bombed on "safe" roads. I would not want Lancaster bombed even with a warning.
"Scum" and "vermin" are genocidal language. Hospitals have had their electricity cut off.
Many people do care about the rest of Gaza.
Does Israel not have apartheid-type laws?
Does the US not want to dominate the world? To say that the alternative is worse is never enough. Increasingly, many people want to oppose all world-dominating powers. I understand but disagree.
Paul.
Sean,
I want to address the issue of inter-power conflicts, then try to wrap up this to my mind sterile exchange.
Surely Russia is in no way any longer a would-be world conqueror? Surely China wants to become top economy and world power but not to rule the entire world directly? How could they? Why should they? The US has been top power but apparently its lead is slipping as every such lead eventually will.
This exchange: Endless repetition. No learning, no advance in understanding. I have raised important questions that I think have been ignored. I think that you deny current injustices done to Palestinians in Israel and in the West Bank because they do not fit with your preconception that the US-backed Zionist state does not cause any of its own problems. Everything can be unloaded onto someone else.
Paul.
Please reply but then let's draw a line.
Kaor, Paul!
Back to having to reply in haste.
I disagree Israel has gone beyond legitimate self defense. Wars, unfortunately, always includes innocents being killed. Stirling pointed out how the Anglo/American bombing of German controlled railroads in France came with 30,000 French being killed in 1944. Tragic, but even de Gaulle did not protest--because he knew such things could not always be prevented in wars.
Those deaths you mentioned are the fault of Hamas, not Israel. Hamas started this war!
I have nothing but the utmost possible contempt for the Hamas creatures. They are not "freedom fighters," they are not honorable soldiers. The atrocities of 10/7 shows what they are: terrorists, mass murderers, gang rapists, torturers, ghastly creatures who behead and roast babies. To say nothing of kidnapping hundreds of people to abuse, terrorize, rape, torture, and kill. They deserve nothing but the scorn and loathing of all decent human beings. Words like "scum" and "vermin" are very mild compared to the unprintable alternatives!
Nor is Israel a "racist" or "apartheid" state. It has about one million Arab citizens, mostly Muslims. They have freedom of religion, can vote and run for office, including winning seats in the Knesset. To say nothing of prospering far more than Arabs in all the neighbors of Israel. However hostile some Jewish Israelis are as individuals, the State is not "racist."
I disagree, the rulers of Russia still have imperial ambitions, even if they can't achieve them. And China definitely does have such ambitions. My belief is they will continue pushing as far as they dare, as long as they meet only weak resistance from incompetents like "Josip."
Think of what might happen if China gets the "high ground" in space: setting missile bases on the Moon to threaten/intimidate anyone who opposes them on Earth!
No, I far prefer US "domination"!
But you want to end this discussion, so I will.
Ad astra! Sean
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