As cited in the immediately preceding post on this blog:
a Cynthian runs an inn;
a Merseian prisoner of war asleep in a bed is shaken awake by a Tigery whose sole mundane aim is to gather military intelligence;
and so on.
However, Poul Anderson also presents genuinely alien psychologies:
Ythrian attitudes to death in "The Problem of Pain" and to sex in The People Of The Wind;
an Ythrian population can debate and decide planetary policy in six hours and human beings can be incorporated into this fully democratic "Khruath" system;
Chee Lan, descended from predators who hunted alone or in small groups, is loyal only to kin and close friends and cannot conceive of universal altruism.
15 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
I disagree with this obsession you seem to have, your apparent belief that all or most intelligent species will be incomprehensible to each other. My belief remains, at a minimum, that if many of these races evolved on planets with oxy/nitrogen atmospheres that alone encourages the likelihood of parallel evolution making similarities between many races possible. I also believe that it's possible many terrestroid planets will have races with some physical similarities to us: one head (with eyes, openings for breathing, hearing, ingestion of nutrition), two arms, two legs. Why shouldn't they, it would be functionally practical!
I see nothing grossly implausible with the idea of humans, Cynthians, Merseians, etc., running inns and taverns. Not if they were biochemically enough like each other to eat/drink many of each other's foods and drinks.
As for Targovi the Tigery interrogating a captured Merseian officer for "mundane" military intelligence, that too never struck me as implausible. I was reminded of this bit from Chapter I of A CIRCUS OF HELLS: "It wasn't the differences between them [Merseians] and men that caused trouble, Flandry knew. It was the similarities--in planets of origin and thus in planets desired; in the energy of warm blooded animals, the instincts of ancestors who hunted, the legacies of pride and war--" If, as I believe, that was Anderson's belief then I agree with him. Meaning species with similar biochemistries and coming from similar planets are likely to have clashes and conflicts. So, of course, POWs will be interrogated!
I don't believe one bit that how Ytrhrians manage their public business will work for humans. Because these two species are physically psychologically different enough from each other that what works for one will not work for the other race. Moreover, Anderson's view of Ythrian politics was affected by the libertarianism he still believed in around 1973. However, I recall how Stirling commented how Anderson had given up on libertarianism by his latter years, accepting that a perfect democracy will simply never work for mankind.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
My obsession about incomprehensibility? We seem to be at cross-purposes here.
Paul.
Sean,
I now think, following Brian Cox, that multicellular organisms may be very rare and also that other technological civilizations, if any, will very probably be so far apart in space and time that they will never make any contact with each other.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Yes, "obsession" is the impression I get. Because you seem to think different intelligent races will be so different from each other, that interactions between them will not, or only seldom, occur. At a minimum it's more accurate to say we don't know that will be the case.
Mr. Cox can believe as he likes, my view is that we don't know how rare or not multicellular life forms are. Also, even without FTL, I would not totally dismiss the possibility of humans and non-humans interacting with each other via STL tech--a theme very plausibly examined by Anderson in STARFARERS.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I do not know what will be the case!
Brian Cox does not believe as he likes! He carefully seeks out evidence.
The point about about multicellular organisms is this:
a unicellular organism is composed of a single simple cell;
a multicellular organism is composed of many complex cells;
a complex cell can come into existence only when two simple cells fuse together into a single complex cell;
usually, when two simple cells come into contact, either one consumes the other, but after that remains a simple cell, or both are destroyed;
the fusion of two simple cells into a single complex cell is very rare and might happen only once in the history of life on a planet or might never happen;
therefore, the galaxy might be full of planets with environments suitable for life but only unicellular organisms existing on them...;
of course, after that, there are all the other "filters" - mobile organisms; central nervous systems; manipulation; consciousness; technology; civilization; advanced technology; a society that does not self-destruct too quickly; two such societies close enough spatiotemporally to detect each other...
All that might explain why, although we are looking, we are not now detecting extrasolar civilizations.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I still regard Cox's argument with skepticism, all I am seeing are speculations, with solid supporting evidence. He also seems to be extrapolating speculations based on very small samples. That is not good enough.
I still prefer what Anderson suggested what might be the case, as seen in STARFARERS.
Also, the kind of galaxy Cox hypothesizes is so boring.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
It is not a speculation. It is known that the fusion of two simple cells into one complex cell is very rare. Might only have happened once on Earth? (I am not sure. Anyway, it is rare.) The sample is the whole Earth.
You have a preferred belief? What we prefer is not necessarily what happens.
The real universe discovered and studied by scientists, including Cox, is fascinating, full of phenomena beyond our imagination, but, even if it were boring, that would not be the point.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I still dissent. The mere fact that fusion of two cells into a more complex cell occurred here indicates it could happen on other worlds as well. Even if that happened on only a small percentage of the nearly countless billions of planets in the galaxy, that still means millions of worlds might have life.
Yes, boring! Scientific study of the universe is never going to interest more than a small percentage of the human race. And I agree that kind of research is necessary and fascinating, but we need to be realistic about how many will care.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
We really seem to have trouble focusing on a single point. The argument is not that the fusion of two single cells into one complex cell COULD not happen elsewhere. It is just that it is very rare and therefore we certainly cannot assume that it WILL have happened on many planets. More probably, the contrary. Cox thought far less than millions in a galaxy. And, after that, there are all the other "filters."
But whether something is boring as you see it does not affect whether it is true!
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
And I prefer to believe or hope multicellular life forms are more common than Cox thinks.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I prefer to hope (not believe) it. Prefer to believe?
Paul.
Paul: "It is known that the fusion of two simple cells into one complex cell is very rare. Might only have happened once on Earth?"
At least twice. There is the fusion of mitochondria into a larger cell to make the first eukaryotic cell, and the later(?) fusion of a cyanobacteria into a eukaryotic cell to make photosynthesizing cell that evolved into multicellular plants.
I'm highly uncertain of the details, but pretty sure it was 2 separate such absorptions. Still only 2 over 4 billions years is a rather low probability event.
Jim,
Thank you for light on the subject. Of course, there might have been other complex cells that were generated but that then failed to survive, reproduce, prosper etc.
Paul.
Poul suggested that alien species would at first glance appear to be stereotypes to humans.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Exactly! Assuming humans ever make contact with non-human races, all parties will have to search for commonalties, similarities in each other to begin trying for mutual understanding. We have to expect to become stereotypes.
Ad astra! Sean
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