Monday, 9 January 2023

The Truth About Venus

Is it the case that, in 1984, the world was divided between three perpetually warring super-states called Eurasia, Eastasia and Oceania? Well, yes, provided that we are clear that we are discussing the fictional narrative in 1984 by George Orwell. If, during such a discussion, I say, "Remember that, at that time, Oceania was allied with Eurasia against Eastasia," someone else might reply, "That's true..."

What are the conditions on the surface of Venus? What is the context of the question? Of course, if the question remains unqualified, then we must simply refer to current scientific data:

atmosphere 96.5% carbon dioxide, 3.5% nitrogen;

surface atmospheric pressure 92 times Terrestrial;

carbon dioxide and nitrogen supercritical fluids on the surface;

surface hotter than Mercury's;

a warning about climate change.

(It sounds more like a gas giant to me.)

If the context of the question is a particular work of fiction, then we must record only what the author imagined and also must not confuse it with what any other author imagined unless we are consciously creating a new composite fiction as both Alan Moore and Larry Niven did with Mars.

On the Venus in Poul Anderson's "The Big Rain," the sun surprisingly is sometimes visible through the clouds and sometimes not but light is diffused through the clouds even at night and there is also flickering aurora. The tanks for surface travel resemble Martian sandcats but are lower and heavier with a refrigerating tube and a grapple to pull them out of gullies that can appear at any time. Gales can blow gravel in lethal rock storms. Hellish but not as uninhabitable as the real Venus.

14 comments:

S.M. Stirling said...

Note that if you took the carbon dioxide out of Venus' atmosphere, it would have about as much nitrogen as Earth -- since its total atmosphere is much more massive in total.

Theoretically, this could be done by gene-tailored photosynthetic organisms dropped into the atmosphere.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Mr. Stirling!

I think Jerry Pournelle discussed similar ideas in the article he wrote about how Venus might be terraformed, "The Big Rain."

And I love how Anderson speculated in "Strange Bedfellows" how it might be possible to terraform the MOON!

Ad astra! Sean

Jim Baerg said...

Also the estimated amount of CO2 in carbonate rocks on earth is about as much as the amount of CO2 in Venus' atmosphere.

Going by the figures in the Wikipedia article on Venus' atmosphere the amount of nitrogen here is a bit over 3 times what is in earth's atmosphere. An advantage for flying animals on a terraformed Venus if most or all of that nitrogen is left there.

S.M. Stirling said...

Venus seems to have been much more earthlike at one point, with liquid water and so forth.

My guess, and it's just a guess, is that life didn't develop on Venus. Life is a very powerful geological force!

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Jim and Mr. Stirling!

Jim: So removing that CO2 from Venus' atmosphere, fixing it in Venerian rock, could be crucial in its terraforming. Again, I have a vague recollection of Pournelle also saying that.

Mr. Stirling: I think, again, that Pournelle suggested that introducing simple, primitive lifeforms (bacteria, insects, worms) would be crucial for terraforming Venus.

Ad astra! Sean

S.M. Stirling said...

Sean: well, you'd have to start by dropping airborne organisms into the atmosphere -- the surface is unsurvivable, for now. The floating organisms would metabolize the CO2, which would precipitate as carbon and oxygen. The temperature would drop as the volume of C02 was reduced.

I don't know if there's enough water, though.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Mr. Stirling!

I agree there will be difficulties, problems, setbacks. But I also believe the idea of terraforming Venus is very much worth looking into.

Ad astra! Sean

Jim Baerg said...

S.M Stirling: "I don't know if there's enough water, though"

from this
https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Venus_Express/Where_did_Venus_s_water_go

"Earth’s atmosphere and oceans contain 100 000 times the total amount of water on Venus."

So if all the water on Venus rained out that would be a few cm spread over the planet's surface. No where near enough.

Bring in hydrogen to react with the oxygen extracted from the CO2 to make decent sized seas.

I guess the 'Lords of Creation' had to do that unless they terraformed Venus *before* the water was lost.

S.M. Stirling said...

Jim: note the layer of carbon the geologist discovers...

It would be possible to bring in water from a number of sources -- comets, frex.

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Jim and Mr. Stirling!

I like the suggestions and comments you both made. And I did wonder about the possibility of crash landing icy asteroids and comets on Venus, to bring in more water.

Ad astra! Sean

Jim Baerg said...

Given the portal technology that is used at the end of "In the Courts of the Crimson Kings", setting up a portal from eg: Jupiter to bring in hydrogen, or the interior of some icy body like Ganymede to bring in water, would be good for terraforming Venus.

Bringing in volatiles from Ganymede to Mars a few times faster than they are lost from Mars to space would be good for indefinitely keeping Mars habitable. The portal from that habitable planet to Mars seems bad in the long run for that other habitable planet.

BTW I got the impression from "The Sky People" that Venus' oceans were deeper than would result from just reacting H2 with Venusian CO2, so I guess both H2 & H2O were imported.
Also to the extent that the geography of Venus was described it sounds like some plate tectonics happened between terraforming & the 'present' so the continents did not match the highlands we see on our Venus.

Jim Baerg said...

BTW I think I would want to bring a few of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seismic_vibrator
to that enormous sphere with the habitable interior.
It would be nice to have a non-destructive way to learn the thickness of that shell.
(Yes. I have worked in geophysical exploration)

Sean M. Brooks said...

Kaor, Jim!

Yes, but I was thinking of technology being used in the terraforming of Venus which is not too far beyond what is currently known or possibly achievable. The portal tech of Stirling's Lords of Creation books is way beyond what can be done in the here and now.

Ad astra! Sean

S.M. Stirling said...

Jim: that's about it. The LoC use both biological and portal technology for both. Though you'd get very strange results with the seismic vibrator, because most of the shell is not ordinary matter -- which couldn't stand the strains.