Ythrians
t'Kelans
Larry Niven
kzinti
two species in the Draco Tavern series
HG Wells' Martians do not eat flesh but extract and inject blood.
Common Characteristics
combativeness
territoriality
The Ythrians can also be compared with other intelligent fliers like Anderson's Diomedeans.
Intelligent beings should be able to communicate through mathematics but would they be able to agree about morality?
14 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
It's an interesting question: will different intelligent races be able to agree about morality? I recall C.S. Lewis wondering in his essay "Religion and Rocketry" if some races exist who were tempted but did not Fall. His thought was that they would have little or no trouble in any dealings with fallen mankind.
But Fr. Axor, in Chapter 1 of THE GAME OF EMPIRE, said there were no known oxygen breathing intelligent races who had plainly NOT fallen. This Wodenite Catholic priest even wondered if the Ymirites were un-Fallen (except the attempted murder of Flandry by a Ymirite makes it plain they too had Fallen). So, no known no non-oxygen breathing species can be said not to have Fallen.
Sean
@ Sean. Can one of Technic History's consciousness-level computers (or the Guthrie History's Teramind) be said to be Fallen or Unfallen? What about the semi-intelligent, domesticated Lugals of Cain? What about the KkTs and the Didonians? How about the native Altaians? What about the Roland natives?
Also, the human concept of "morality" overlaps but is not equivalent to the Christian concept of Fallen, AFAIK. From the best of my understanding, Judaism says we are imperfect and fallible but does NOT say "Through Adam's fall, we sinned all".
-kh
P.S. Please email me a link to your articles to kdhalperin@sbcglobal.net
Keith,
Please check your emails.
Paul.
Done and seen! Thanks, Paul. Will read....
Cheers,
KH
Kaor, Keith!
The fact that the AIs in the HARVEST OF STARS books, despite their gentleness, were still capable of planning and doing questionable things, does not lead me to think they were un-Fallen. The AI we see too little of in A CIRCUS OF HELLS was actually far more innocent, missing mankind and "pathetically" eager to resume normal operations.
There was even a question raised in "The Master Key" if the Yildivans even had souls. With Old Nick saying he would leave that to the theologians to decide. And what the Yildivans did, domesticating an intelligent species into mere animals was certainly bad. Rather like what Stirling's Draka did to those humans they turned into "homo Servus." So, yes, Yildivans were Fallen (if they have souls).
And it was precisely because of Adam's sin that all reasonably orthodox Christians believe the human race is fallen. Which I believe can be empirically proven every day.
You seem to have finally found my articles! I hope some of them interests you. Candidly, I think some of them are weak, while I really like of the others.
Sean
Thanks, Sean.
1) I look forward to reading the articles.
2) Is a sense of self-awareness required to be fallen/unfallen or is it the beliefs/acts held performed? Were the Homo Servus unfallen? Were the Lugals fallen? Before they were domesticated, could they have been fallen, but no longer were? If they were restored to full "sapience" or "sophontry" would that cause them then to be fallen? If that were done, would it be sinful? If humans could be truly domesticated like Lugals (if Lugals/Servus are unfallen) would that render us unfallen?
-kh
Kaor, Keith!
It's late, so I will try to respond to your complex questions after I wake up!
Sean
Kaor, Keith!
Let me know if you comment on some of my rather nerdy essays! (Smiles)
Yes, I believe it logically follows that any species which has Fallen or not Fallen needs a sense of "self awareness" for that to be meaningful. Yes, I believe the homo Servus bred by the Draka to be Fallen--because the Draka "created" from the same originally unmodified human stock they too came from.
No, assuming the Lugals were simply intelligent animals, they could not be Fallen. IF my recollection of "the Master Key" is correct, Lugals had been like dogs to thy Yildivans almost from the moment the latter became intelligent beings. Answering your other questions about the Lugals depends on whether it is even possible for them to act independently of the will and wishes of the Yildivans. As described in the story, I doubt that can be done. See my earlier response about the Draka's homo Servus re Lugals/humans.
Sean
Sean,
I was brought up to believe that any animals capable of speech have reason/intellect and therefore a soul but I no longer believe this.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I know, but I simply don't believe in any kind of materialism in philosophy. John Wright's arguments against that philosophy convinced me. And I did send you the link to a collection of his blog pieces about materialism.
Sean
Sean,
But my point here was just that, according to, e.g., Cartesian, soul theory, the Lugal's ability to speak entails that they do have souls.
Paul.
Sean,
On the wider issue, I showed in previous discussions that dialectical materialism is not about mechanical processes, by definition unconscious, contradictorily becoming conscious but about being/energy/reality, however this is understood and defined, becoming conscious. A quantitative increase of temperature becomes a qualitative transformation of liquid into gas. Quantitatively increasing organismic sensitivity becomes conscious sensation.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I realize that is your belief, but it's one which does not convince me.
Sean
Sean,
But do you accept that, within the body-soul dualism view, speech would imply a soul?
Paul.
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