narrative is verbal;
sequential art is visual-verbal;
film is audiovisual.
Mike Carey's Lucifer shows us a fictional Hell as do Robert Heinlein's Magic Inc and Poul Anderson's Operation Chaos. Further:
Operation Chaos follows Magic Inc as the Psychotechnic History follows the Future History;
a demonic mass meeting in Neil Gaiman's The Sandman was based on an exactly similar scene in Magic Inc;
Lucifer is a sequel to The Sandman.
So everything connects somehow. We would like to see Poul Anderson's works adapted into both visual media - but done properly, of course.
25 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
For me, when I want a "change," I generally read a different book or magazine. You mentioned prose, does that mean you would classify poetry under prose in the sense of "reading" when you desire a change?
I thought Poul Anderson's depiction of hell in OPERATION CHAOS more truly nasty and unpleasant than Heinlein's version in "Magic, Inc." Perhaps because Anderson took ideas about salvation and damnation more seriously than RAH did?
And, of course, NO one has beat Dante in the majesty, massive detail, and sheer readability of his depictions of hell, purgatory, and paradise. Not even Milton's PARADISE LOST.
In more recent times Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle has given us interesting science fictional versions of hell based on Dante's poem in INFERNO and ESCAPE FROM HELL. As a Catholic, however, I'm a bit dubious of their theology of hell, based as it was in C.S. Lewis' thought.
Sean
Sean,
I do not habitually read poetry so I did not have it in mind. But I was thinking of the change from mere printed words to a visual medium.
Are Niven's and Pournelle's Hell books really based on Lewis' ideas?
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I am, alas, not much better than that myself! That is, not truly a HABITUAL reader of poetry. But I do like Kipling's poerms and Dante's enormous work made a huge impression on me. And, I have a copy of Anderson's collection of his poems, STAVES.
As for C.S. Lewis, this is what Niven and Pournelle wrote in the "Notes" placed after the end of ESCAPE FROM HELL (Tor: 2009): "...and we drew much of our theological inspiration from C.S. Lewis, particularly his THE GREAT DIVORCE." Niven and Pournelle also dedicated ESCAPE to Lewis.
So, yes, both INFERNO and ESCAPE FROM HELL owes much to C.S. Lewis. Esp. Lewis' idea that one purpose or function of hell is an attempt to convince the sinner to understand how badly he had gone wrong and to repent.
Sean
Sean,
I am impressed by Niven and Pournelle taking a lead from Lewis. I failed to get ESCAPE FROM HELL through our Public Libraries but Ketlan is about to order it for me through Amazon. Is there a hereafter? I doubt it. If so, is it controlled by powerful beings whose purpose is to help our spiritual and moral development? I doubt it even more. But, if the answer to both questions were yes, then Hell as endless torment would make no sense. Gaiman's fictional Hell also seems Lewisian although I do not think that Gaiman has acknowledged this.
Lewis follows Plato, Dante and Milton but adds his own imagination and moral reflection.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I think Jerry Pournelle is a convinced Episcopalian (Anglican), so I would not be surprised he admired C.S. Lewis. And I hope you soon get a copy of ESCAPE FROM HELL and find it interesting.
I, as a Catholic, do believe there is a hereafter. And that heaven, purgatory, and hell are actual "states of existence." And that not only does God exist but there are good and bad angels, trying to help or harm us.
Briefly, because Our Lord affirmed the reality and eternity of hell, I have to believe that He, who is God Incarnate, could not and would not lie. The teaching of the Catholic Church is that no one is damned who does not, ultimately, CHOOSE to hate and reject God for all eternity. The pain and sorrow of hell is not imposed on the damned by an exterior Power, it was something they chose of their own free will.
Sean
Sean,
Interesting if Dr Pournelle is Episcopalian.
I understand the view that damnation is chosen, not imposed, and that agrees with Lewis. However, throughout his works, he merely assumes survival after death, which I find highly questionable.
There are other Christian teachings about damnation:
that everyone who has not converted to Christ is damned;
that anyone who has not been baptized is damned;
that a Catholic who dies before confessing a mortal sin is damned;
that those who are not saved are merely not resurrected (Witnesses, Christadelphians).
Rival teachings resemble the Tower of Babel!
Paul.
Sean,
I have also heard that moral choices cannot be made after death. THE GREAT DIVORCE shows such choices being made in the hereafter and your account of Catholic teaching seems to imply this also?
Paul.
Sean,
An unpleasant feature of Christianity is some groups thinking that they are saved and others are not. A Catholic who believes that he is in a state of grace is damned according to an Evangelical. All that some people can say is, "But what if it is true?" (Pascal's Wager.) I reply, "How do you know it is true? It remains unpleasant. Is Christ a bigot?"
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
First, I admire the zeal and prolificity of your comments and blog pieces. I have to work hard to keep up with you! (Smiles)
Not all SF writers, by far, are atheists or even agnostics. The Clutopedia, in its article about religion in SF, gives a good listing of writers who are either religious believers or friendly agnostics (with Poul Anderson being one of the latter).
I admit to being puzzled why you, and others, find it so hard to believe or accept there is a hereafter.
To me, because I believe the Catholic Church is the church founded by Christ, then it's the CATHOLIC teachings about heaven, purgatory, and hell I believe to be true.
You wrote: "that everyone who has not converted to Christ is damned; that anyone who has not been baptized is damned." The Catholic view is that God will judge with mercy those who, thru no fault of their own, did not know of Christ. That it is not our place to do any such judging. God will judge those who did not know Christ by how they lived and acted,
In fact, I have a vague recollection of Dante himself saying something very much like this in his DIVINE COMEDY. I wish I could track it down!
A Catholic who dies IMPENITENT of his sins is damned, correct.
I'm heard of the JWs, but not the Christadelphians. That seems a new heretical sect to me!
Sean
Kaor, Paul!
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "moral choices" after one's death. The Catholic teaching is that at the moment of death we all make a final, irrevocable, eternal choice for or against God. I suppose it could be said the angels, good or bad, and the souls of the saved or damned chose to do good or bad things. But I don't think that is quite what you had in mind.
Sean
kaor,Paul!
The "unpleasant feature" you mention is not TRUE, orthodox Christianity. And I freely admit that some Catholics have been like that. Nor is Our Lord a bigot!
Sean
Sean,
Christadelphians: nineteenth century British sect; "Brothers in Christ"; unitarian; Christ did not preexist his birth; there are no souls; souls are a pagan, not a Biblical, belief; the only immortality is physical resurrection; only believers will be resurrected and some of them will be judged and not kept alive/killed(!); Christian Zionists; Christ will arrive soon and take over as King in Jerusalem, accepted by the Jews; he will somehow conquer and rule the rest of the world; resurrected Christadelphians will form his government; I think that people in other countries will continue to be born and die naturally.
Paul.
Sean,
I think that a hereafter is logically possible but that there is insufficient evidence for it. We are organisms. Surely our consciousness is dependent on our brain and ceases with it just as the contents of a diary are destroyed if the diary in burned.
Paul.
Sean,
Lewis shows moral choices affecting salvation after death. Is there any Biblical basis for a decisive moral choice at death?
Do you know what Niven & Pournelle mean by "cocreation" in their Notes to ESCAPE FROM HELL?
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Thanks for explaining who or what were the "Christadelphians." Some current heretical sects share some of these ideas. My view is that you simply can't be even a heretical Christian at all if you deny the divinity of Christ, that the Second Person of the Trinity, the Eternal Logos and Son, did not become incarnate as Man by assuming a human soul and body when the BVM assented to the Angel's message.
Sean
Kaor, Paul!
Simply as a matter of logic, isn't that enough, for a beginning? Your comment here reminds me of how the First Vatican Council insisted that we can come to SOME true knowledge of God (and, by extension, immortality of the soul), by natural reasoning alone. The Church was defending the idea that we can come to some TRUE and certain knowledge by philosophic reasoning against the "relativist" view that nothing is certain, nothing is true, or capable of being known for sure.
Sean
Sean,
The Annunciation is only in Luke's Gospel and surely is not a historical event but the kind of legendary story that is told much later when someone like Jesus has come to be regarded as significant?
Paul.
Sean,
The logical possibility of a hereafter is not enough basis for me to accept the reality of a hereafter.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I think there is Biblical evidence for the belief we all make a decisive, final choice at the moment of death, but I'm not sure. It could be an example of deductive, theological reasoning.
I am unable to comment about "co-creation." I admit that is new to me. Oddly, perhaps, the word reminds me of what Tolkien wrote about writers "creating" worlds of their own in their works.
Sean
Kaor, Paul!
But I do believe the Annunciation was historical, if not EXACTLY as what St. Luke wrote.
Sean
Kaor, Paul!
Then I think we are at an impasse on this point. Because I do believe we can come to some true and real knowledge by logic and philosophic reasoning alone.
Sean
Sean,
I think that the Annunciation is adequately accounted for simply as the sort of story that got written when a figure like Jesus had come to be regarded as important. There are legendary stories about many great leaders.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
But I don't believe the Annunciation was merely or solely a "midrash." Because I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired, that logically means I believe the Scriptures teaches REVEALED truths, even if sometimes in forms many in later generations don't accept.
Sean
Sean,
But this is the communication problem. I know what you believe but see no reason to accept it.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Then, unfortunately, we have reached another impasse, this time on the question of the divine inspiration of the Bible.
Sean
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