Who or what caused the Change in SM Stirling's Emberverse series? Was it Satan? See comments
here. I understood that it was the good guys/gods. See
here, including the
Addendum dated today, and
here. This view is backed up by the Wikipedia article on the novel (see
here), which states that humanity had to be deprived of high technology so that it would have time to mature without destroying itself first. I will return to this issue when I have more information to hand.
10 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
And I would ABSOLUTELY disagree with any arguments in FAVOR of the Change as being somehow a necessary and right thing. The human race is fallen and imperfect, but it would not be RIGHT to brutally cast mankind so far back, technologically speaking, with such agonizing consequences. This is, I think, the weakest part of Stirling's Change scenario.
Sean
Paul and Sean:
The implication that humanity can at some time in the future be "given back" a scientifically rational universe, one in which technology works, is implausible. The Changed universe, the fact that things like Artos' sword plainly work by some sort of magic rather than any technology, are crippling humanity's mental development. Humans in the Changed universe will NEVER be able to reach for the stars.
The "Mind" with insufferable paternalism decreed that it alone knew best and would inflict its decision on a humankind which lacked as yet the ability to resist — and now will be FOREVER too stunted intellectually to ever avenge itself on these foul "gods."
What's more, Artos being so obviously "the Chosen One" will enshrine the filthy "Divine Right of Kings" irremovably in the human consciousness. And if the king is "divinely chosen," how can questioning him or seeking to hold him to account be anything but blasphemy? Democracy, too, is DEAD forever in that universe.
Kaor, DAVID!
And I still think that "Mind" reminds me more of Satan than the true God.
And I would be OUTRAGED at the malevolent power which cast mankind so far back and makes it impossible for the human race to again build up a high technology capable of enabling mankind to dream great dreams and to ACHIEVE them. Such as reaching for the stars!
I don't quite agree with your last paragraph. While I find that magic Sword of Artos a strain to accept, he himself never claimed to be all knowing and incapable of making mistakes. And Artos BELIEVES in the rule of law and that the state exists for the welfare of the people, not the other way about.
As you know, I don't really care about the FORMS a state might have. What really matters is that it be accepted as legitimate, governs by laws at least somewhat respecting the rights of the people, and rules not too badly.
Sean
Bear in mind that the Powers who speak to Rudi emphasize that they're telling him as much of the background as they can. The reason they're not being more clear or complete is that humans -can't- understand what's going on completely, any more than a dog can understand, say, the difference between social democracy and libertarianism. It's just not possible.
Dear Mr. Stirling,
Granted, but if those "Powers" caused the Change, then they strike me as being very unpleasant Persons. But I admit I have to reread the entire series before I can speak more satisfactorily about this.
Sean
Actually, many of the constituent parts of Montival are quite democratic; the Mackenzies are, for example. Most of their decisions are made at the "Dun" level by the oneach, the equivalent of a Town Meeting; there's a central "Great Assembly" of delegates from all the Duns.
The Oneach Mor, the Great Assembly, can chose the Chief and the Tannist (Chief's successor). To date they've chosen Juniper Mackenzie and two different successors from her children, but they don't -have- to.
The High Kingdom is a hereditary monarchy, but it's a rather limited one. The constituent realms have considerably more authority than US states or Canadian provinces -- in some respects, more than member states of the EU.
The High King keeps the peace between realms, enforces a limited number of rules, organizes some joint endeavors (war, of course, and sometimes disaster relief), and is the ultimate court of appeal for death sentences.
The Sword of the Lady also serves as a check on the High King; it simply won't serve anyone unworthy.
As always, "consider the alternatives" -- and Rudi gets shown some of those. The ones where Earth is an uninhabited ruin aren't even the worst ones.
And remember "Clarke's Law" about magic and technology. It's not that the Powers keep how they do things secret; it's just that humans can't understand how and what they do for the same reason dogs can't understand algebra. We're just not smart enough.
Dear Mr. Stirling,
I will look up those far worse "alternatives." I think some would be worse than even the mindless animals who were once humans that the CUT wanted to breed some humans into. But, I still feel anger at the idea of the horrors of the Change and of mankind being forever forced to a lower level of technology.
Sean
Dear Mr. Stirling,
Exactly! I should have pointed out the examples of the Town Meeting style of democracy used by the Mackenzies. And the somewhat similar but more elaborate system used in Corvallis also comes to mind.
Yes, the High Kindom of Montival is not an autocracy, but a quite limited monarchy.
What really bothers me is that magic sword of Artos. I think Paul is correct, it comes too close to being a mere deus ex machina.
Sean
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