(II) Minamoto describes how space industries saved Earth, a necessary condition for the emergence of Technic civilization.
(III) Hloch is interested in Technic civilization insofar as it impacts on Ythrians and has led to the founding of his choth on Avalon.
(IV) Hloch tries to explain Terran nations and the Solar Commonwealth as a nation of nations to his fellow Ythrians.
(V) Vance Halls makes progress from uranium fusion and lasers to artificial gravity and the quantum hyperjump seem perfectly reasonable.
(VI) Noah Arkwright explains that there are so many sophont species that many of them can partially communicate with human beings.
(VII) Arkwright doubts whether Technic civilization has entered a neo-Elizabethan age except for some analogies.
(VIII) Le Matelot compares:
his generation to Europeans in America or to Greeks in the Mediterranean;
the Polesotechnic League to medieval mercantile guilds.-
- but also differentiates Technic from Classical or Western civilization.
The two remaining passages require further elucidation.
18 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
Nice summary, esp. point "i." A colonizing expedition sent by Elon Musk to Mars would undergo such an "experiental" point.
Ad astra! Sean
Frankly, I've never seen any fundamental difference between Technic and Western civilization. Apart from the differences you'd expect after that much time, and a somewhat greater degree of cosmopolitanism.
Sean: SpaceX plans to send crewed Starships every two years and a bit -- at closest approach, with passage times between 3 and 4 months. That's less than crews have spent at the ISS.
An important 'experiential threshold' that would be experienced on a Mars expedition is living for years at gravity more than 0 but less than 9.8 m/s^2.
We know from the ISS that spending months at zero gee is bad for human health. We don't have any data on living for more than a few days at between zero and one gee. We should try to get such data with a moon base and a rotating space habitat set for Martian gravity. The space habitat could be a couple of SpaceX starships on a tether.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling and Jim!
Mr. Stirling: Basically, I agree, since Technic civilization sprang directly the Western, much in the former case would be familiar to us. Changes like our English becoming Anglic did occur. Over a thousand years later Flandry had to read Elizabeth Barrett Browning's poetry in translations.
You are right, I goofed when I assumed it would take years to travel to different parts of the Solar System--Anderson most likely erred there, thinking the "Chronos" would need eight years getting to Saturn.
And I love the idea of Elon Musk/SpaceX sending manned expeditions to Mars! Soon, soon, soon I hope! I forgot about how proper timing could make such journeys only 3/4 months long.
Jim: You are right about how the very low gravity of the Moon could make long residence there unhealthy for humans, unless special arrangements were made. In Anderson's HARVEST OF STARS books humans were genetically modified to enable them to live/prosper in low gravity. Unmodified humans eventually used an O'Neill habitat orbiting the Moon to periodically go there to regain strength lost in a low g environment.
But Mars has a gravity about 38% that of Earth's, which Anderson thought would be high enough for unmodified humans to live, prosper, and have children in colonies there. Let's find out as soon as possible!!!
Ad astra! Sean
Yes. Mars' gravity is about 2.5 x the Moon's gravity (and about 2.5 x less than Earth's gravity) so it is somewhat plausible that Martian gravity will be enough for human health while Lunar gravity is insufficient. However, WE DON'T HAVE ANY DATA. It *could* be that both lunar or Martian gravity is enough to keep humans healthy or that neither are. until we have some data it is just speculation. Anderson put in that plausible speculation that lunar gravity is too low for unmodified humans to live long term and Martian gravity is high enough, but that is just speculation to fit the story he wanted to tell.
Kaor, Jim!
And I agree! Reread my comment immediately above, esp. the last sentence: "Let's find out as soon as possible!!!" We can't find out the necessary data on how well or not humans can live on the Moon or Mars until people start living there. So I hope Musk/SpaceX soon start sending manned expeditions to the Moon and Mars.
Ad astra! Sean
Experiment is the way to find out.
I would just like the experiment with Martian gravity to be in a rotating habitat close enough to earth to take the humans back to earth if several months of the experiment show Martian gravity to be distinctly unhealthy.
This would be redundant if experience with lunar gravity shows that gravity to be sufficient for human health.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling and Jim!
Mr. Stirling: Absolutely! People like Musk have restored to me some of the hope I've lost in this woke, decadent of ours.
Jim: That clarifies what you meant. And I love the idea of a rotating habitat in space which should also have several rings for different percentages of artificial gravity. One of the most interesting, to me, of Ben Bova's stories of Sam Gunn (reminiscent of Nicholas van Rijn, except for being short) building such a rotating ring habitat.
But, as things are now, I think it would be almost impossible to build such a habitat. Too many politicians, bureaucrats, ideologues, etc., would oppose it. Any serious attempt do to do that now would, IMO, would get bogged down in frivolous lawsuits, harassing "investigations," and demagogic protests. Years, even decades, would go by with nothing being built.
No, better to do it the way Musk plans, sending manned expeditions to Mars. If 500,000 people were willing to volunteer for the Mars One Project, I don't think he would have trouble finding a hundred or so volunteers for the first expeditions.
Ad astra! Sean
I don't expect Musk to get anywhere near Mars but I can be proved wrong.
Kaor, Paul!
Not for the first time I'm wondering why you seem reluctant to accept there might be a real possibility of mankind getting off this rock in a real, decisive way. Robert Heinlein was right to say it's folly to persist in keeping all our eggs in only one basket, Earth.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
We are at cross purposes as ever. Of course I accept that there is a real possibility of mankind getting off Earth and that we should not keep all our eggs in one basket. I have said as much. I just do not see Musk getting to Mars on his proposed time scale. And, again, I can be proved wrong.
We should not have to spend so much time clarifying what we did NOT say.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I'm sorry about that. But sometimes any of us can be unclear. And I hope Musk does succeed in sending expeditions to Mars within a few years. IIRC, the first stage would be for SpaceX to send unmanned ships to land supplies and equipment--then comes the first manned ships.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean: "..rotating habitat in space which should also have several rings for different percentages of artificial gravity...
But, as things are now, I think it would be almost impossible to build such a habitat."
There is no need for anything so elaborate for the first experiment in centrifugal gravity.
If the SpaceX Starship works somewhere near as well as hoped (it looks pretty likely), here is what I imagine for the first such habitat:
Build 2 starships without the parts needed only for return to earth. Launch them to the same orbit with a tether (or tethers). Link them with the tether(s) and rotate the combination to give each starship martian gravity. Put a docking port at the center of rotation and an elevator to bring people and equipment between each starship & the docking port. Now we can have people living there for months like on the ISS & see the effects on human health. Also we test equipment meant to be used on Mars for effectiveness at Martian gravity.
BTW there should be a website about events on this space station called "News of the Whirled". ;)
Kaor, Jim!
That clarifies what you were trying to say. Thanks!
And I love your suggestion on how SpaceX might try building a centrifugal rotating habitat using two Starships for testing how people and equipment might do in Martian gravity. Big enough to do that job, and small enough to be quickly assembled. Maybe you should write to SpaceX explaining this--it might even reach Musk's desk!
"News From the Whirled"? Ha!!!
Ad astra! Sean
Kaor, Jim!
Another Big Idea I love that we see Anderson examining was terraforming the Moon, in "Strange Bedfellows." Anderson was quite detailed speculating how that might be done. I even quoted some of the relevant parts to an engineer, who thought it was actually doable!
"Strange..." also shows us a constellation of sometimes otherwise opposed factions agreeing in disliking the terraforming of the Moon. And that explains why we might see similar opposition to building a really big rotating ring habitat in this decadent age of ours.
Ad astra! Sean
I should have written my comment to make it evident that I got the idea from reading a similar suggestion. (I don't recall where). At the very least I have seen suggestions of using a SpaceX starship as a replacement for the ISS. Now I'm not sure if I read the two connected Starships for a rotating habitat or combined the first idea with Zubrin's suggestion in "The Case For Mars" to have rotational 'gravity' on the trip to Mars.
Musk seems to like doing incremental improvements on his spacecraft, so it seems odd that he keeps talking about Mars trips very soon rather than after a moonbase & rotating space habitats.
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