The Aleriona are an alien species with a long established interstellar sphere of influence in the Phoenix region. Human beings have colonized the planet, New Europe, in that region. Although the two species do not inhabit the same kinds of planets, there have been several clashes in the Phoenix region including one at New Europe where the Aleriona claim and the Federation authorities accept that the half million human colonists were killed in a missile attack. The Aleriona, having now occupied New Europe, offer indemnity, ask human beings to withdraw from the Phoenix region and claim that they will likewise respect a Solar sphere of influence. However, Heim has evidence that the human colonists were not killed but have taken to the hills and await rescue. Unofficial action becomes necessary.
28 comments:
Helm's also rightly convinced that the Aleriona have no intention of a lasting peace.
But plenty of people will believe they do, because they want to believe it.
Wishful thinking is a powerful force.
Yes. That is in there too.
Kaor, Paul!
As Stirling said, wishful thinking is a disastrously powerful force in both fiction and real life! I recall Lord Haukberg's wishful thinking about Mersia in ENSIGN FLANDRY and the desperate efforts of "Josip" and his puppet masters to make a deal with an implacably hostile Iran in real life.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean: or the image of the Palestinians as hard-done by innocents, when actually they have (collectively) repeatedly rejected compromise and chosen war.
And if you do that, the consequences are entirely on you.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Absolutely! The Gazans have only themselves to blame for their plight.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Absolutely not. Gazan children do not have themselves to blame for being starved and slaughtered. We have to distinguish between people and their leaderships. Hamas has caused immense suffering to Israeli victims and hostages and to Gazan women and children: Israelis murdered or kidnapped by Hamas; women and children killed in retaliation by the IDF.
On the subject of leadership: a Zionist leadership established Israel as an armed camp and in no way had the support of all Jewish people in doing that. There are many anti-Zionist Jewish people who join protests instead of feeling threatened by them. I saw an entire group of anti-Zionist rabbis on one supposedly "anti-Semitic," pro-Palestinian march.
Hamas and Zionists are bad leaders. We must support Palestinian and Jewish people.
Paul.
Also on people and leaders, the fact that, despite everything that he has done, Trump still has such a large following - and some people making excuses for him or playing down his significance - says that there is something wrong not only with his leadership but also with a lot of the people involved. Where is the US going? (If you ask about the UK, that is not going anywhere good either.)
Kaor, Paul!
You still don't understand: the Hamas criminals started a war of extermination of Jews and Israel struck bad--as it had every right to do. The non-combatants you complain of as being "massacred" by Israel suffered because the Hamas scum hid among them, including in hospitals, and the hundreds of miles of tunnels built by Hamas under Gaza. It's impossible to fight a war in a heavily urbanized area without non-combatant casualties. Israel also tried to limit casualties by public warnings, and outlining evacuation routes to be used by non-combatants.
All non-combatant casualties is Hamas' responsibility, not Israel's.
I don't care about Trump right now. First he is not President and might not be re-elected, despite the corruption and incompetence of the radical woke leftists who dominate the Democrats. Second, the aged, senile, corrupt and bungling "Josip" is President. His incompetence and catastrophic policies and "decisions" is what has brought on so much of the chaos seen since 2021. The bungling and corruption of "Josip" and the Democrats is what has been spurring on support for Trump (altho I would far rather someone like Gov. Ron DeSantis of FL would be the GOP nominee).
Btw, take note of how the judge in the FL classified documents case has virtually dismissed the charges against Trump after it was revealed the prosecution tampered with the evidence!!! And the charges against Trump in the Manhattan trial are ridiculously weak, as many lawyers have pointed out. And the GA case is now mired by revelations about prosecutorial misconduct and conflicts of interest. Lawfare, as some call it, Democrats abusing the laws to "get" Trump.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
It is still true that he denied an election result, tried to overthrow the election result and incited a riot in which people were killed!
Hamas broke out of an open air prison. I do not agree with any of their killing or kidnapping. Israel is dispossessing Palestinians in the West Bank and blocking aid getting into Gaza. Mass graves have been found in those hospitals. The civilian deaths are far too many to be justified as side effects of war. Aid workers have been targeted. The IDF cannot wash its hands of responsibility. I think that I do understand what is going on.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Irrelevant, what you said about Trump, because even the Democrats are not trying to prosecute him for what you accuse him of doing.
I disagree, re Gaza, because Israel has every right to strike back. While some atrocities may have been committed by Israelis, better evidence will be needed than simply "mass graves." Because the bodies found may have been killed by Hamas terrorists.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
But he did do all that. We all saw and heard him. There is massive denial going on here.
Better evidence than "mass graves"? Hamas may have tortured and killed Gazan hospital staff with hands tied behind their backs? Israel does not have any right to strike back on the scale that it has done. Criminals are not apprehended and brought to justice by flattening a country, killing civilians in such great numbers and driving a population into exile.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
No, we saw Trump saying he did not believe he lost the 2020 election legally. Right or wrong that is free speech protected by the First Amendment to the US Constitution.
Disagree, what you said about Israel. The Hamas criminals were waging war on Israel. They are responsible for the destruction in Gaza.
If Israel had lost its war of independence in 1948 the Jews would have been the ones massacred and driven into exile, and on a far vaster and bloodier scale than anything done to the Palestinians. There is no point or use in trying to change what happened 76 years ago.
Ad astra! Sean
Kaor, Paul!
Americans are not Britons. We have a tradition of using hot-tempered rhetoric, in both left and right. But most times such language is not taken literally. Politics is a rough contact sport in the US.
The Hamas scum are both, criminals and wagers of war. And they sought to massacre as many Jews as possible. And Hamas is thus responsible for the destruction of Gaza.
In 1948 the Arabs rejected a very favorable to them UN partition plan which the founders of Israel accepted. The Arabs are responsible for the outcome of that rejection.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Hamas is responsible for the massacre of Israelis, not for the destruction of Gaza. The IDF are doing that and are responsible for it.
The children who are being killed now are not responsible for a rejection in 1948. It makes no sense to argue like that.
Paul.
BTW, if I had been a Palestinian Arab in 1948, then I would not have agreed to a deal that allowed Zionists to come in, expel people from their land and set up a Jewish state. States should be neutral between races and religions and should treat everyone within their borders equally. Of course I am criticizing Muslim states by the same token but the nature of these conflicts is that, if we criticize one kind of state, then we are assumed to support/defend/apologize for the other/the enemy. We have to spend a lot of time saying what it is that we are NOT saying and this should not be necessary.
Kaor, Paul!
Disagree. The Arabs chose, from hatred of Jews, to reject a very favorable compromise in 1948, one the founders of modern Israel accepted. They are responsible for the consequences of that rejection. And responsible for the consequences of whatever they do now, like the 10/7 massacre.
You still don't seem to understand, what a huge role Islam plays in the Muslim conception of the State. Ideally, the State should be theocratic, ruled by Sharia law, with all non-Muslims forced into an inferior status. Westphalian notions of the State being neutral in matters of religion and evenhandedly enforcing peace on everybody are distasteful/repellent to many, many Muslims.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I think that we have different understandings rather than that you understand and I don't.
Those who committed the 10/7 massacre are responsible for its consequences. The IDF are responsible for the consequences of their actions. None of us can just shrug off responsibility onto the previous actor. There is not just a single group called "Arabs" that has been responsible for a whole string of actions from 1948 until now!
Many Muslims live in and participate in democratic secular society. I know that Islamism is a problem but so is Zionism. Many Jewish people reject the latter and campaign against Israeli policies but the media present all "Jews" as threatened by Palestinian Solidarity.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I disagree. I'm talking about wars, not mere police actions. I stand by everything I said above.
I was imprecise about my comments re "Muslims." I did not have in mind the small minorities of Muslims living in the UK or US, groups too small to bully or tyrannize over non-Muslims. And a fair number of these will be Westernized or even lax Muslims.
I had in mind the vast majority of Muslims who live in overwhelmingly Muslim countries. What we call "democracy" is next to non-existent there. Those nations do have many, many Muslims who do believe in Sharia theocracy and have only contempt for non-Muslims.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
You disagree about what? I thought that we had some measure of agreement there. These exchanges neither progress nor open out. They simply repeat.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Because we cannot agree about Israel and the Gaza war. I believe Israel to be in the right.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Well, that disagreement is obvious and need not be restated.
Paul.
Paul: in the 1930's the British who were running the Palestine mandate offered a partition plan that would have internationalized Jerusalem, given a Palestinian Arab state 80% of the Mandate's territory, and the Jews a little postage stamp around Tel Aviv.
The Palestinians rejected it and launched an 'intifada' -- Moishe Dayan got his initial military experience helping to put that down.
Which is how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ended up in the Balkans during WWII, recruiting Balkan Muslims for the Waffen-SS.
The Palestinian population as a whole was actively pro-Axis during WWII, restrained only by the British garrison and the Jews.
The 1947 deal wasn't as generous for the Arabs, but it did -not- involve deportation of populations.
If the Arabs had accepted it, all the Palestinian residents of Israel would have become Israeli citizens. Many did anyway. No Jews survived in the portions of the Mandate that the Arabs controlled.
The Palestinians rejected that 1947 deal, too, and attacked with the overt, stated intention of killing or driving out all the Jews.
And then they committed the absolute and eternally unforgivable sin: they lost.
If you reject compromise and chose war, the results -- including your own defeat, death and dispossession -- are entirely on you. You're asking for it, whatever 'it' is.
As Elizabeth I of England said: "I do not like wars. Their outcomes are never certain."
And as the old saying goes, half a loaf is better than no bread, while "justice" buys no yams.
Every side on every war in human history has been convinced they had "right" and "justice" on their side, and every one of them was 100% right.
Because those are opinions. Wars aren't settled by opinions; they're settled by power. Take what you can get, or throw the iron dice of war and get what that yields.
So calculate the odds and unless they're overwhelmingly in your favor, go for the compromise.
Four points here:
(i) I read very different accounts of what happened back then. Did the Nakba happen?
(ii) We still need to respond to what is happening now. An attempt to eradicate a resistance/terrorist movement causes a lot of destruction, thus increasing support for that movement, and then fails. Simply trying to eradicate Hamas or any other such group is not a solution. Nor is grabbing more land.
(iii) A longer term solution will be the people of that region rejecting the policies of all their existing governments.
(iv) I am against "jewish," "Muslimm" etc states.
Paul:
i) The Nakba happened, because the Palestinians chose to fight.
Fighting in inhabited territories usually results in population displacement.
The 1947 partition resolution boundaries and other aspects were off the table once they chose to fight.
You throw the iron dice, you get the result you get and you deserve it. They didn't have to fight; they chose to fight.
ii) not if you kill every member of Hamas and everyone who joins it. Eventually the Palestinians will have to accept their defeat as irreversible, or be wiped out. If the latter, it's entirely on them.
iii) those policies are -popular- with the peoples concerned.
iv) but Jews and Muslims aren't.
Why should you get to impose your views on them? Not that you can, in fact.
Kaor, Paul!
Everything I learn about the Jewish/Palestinian conflict convinces me you are just plain wrong in what you advocate and hope for. The Arabs chose fanaticism, hate, war, rejectionism. Everything that results from their defeats is on them, not Israel. The Gazans should be evacuated and resettled in Egypt or Saudi Arabia.
Ad astra! Sean
I certainly don't want to impose my views but I do express an opinion in preference of a single secular state treating everyone within its borders with full equality and impartiality. This is not plain wrong - at worst, it is a matter of debateable opinion - although neither is it an immediate prospect. No one should be forcibly evacuated or resettled anywhere else. Many people are suffering now who are not responsible for that suffering. "The Arabs chose fanaticism..." etc? Not every member of a now starving population as the entry of aid is obstructed.
I am not fully informed on the whole history and just have to keep learning from people who have different perspectives and who emphasise different aspects of that history. But I certainly oppose what Israel has been doing recently and is still doing.
Kaor, Paul!
No, you stubbornly insist on what is, under actual circumstances, an impossibility: a "secular" state. With the Muslims, steeped as they are in Sharia, far more hostile to such notions than the Jews.
Again, no, wars fought in heavily urbanized areas, like Gaza, inevitably results in mass population displacements, and should, to lessen casualties. Disagree, the vast majority of the Gazans chose to support rolling the iron dice of war, and the Hamas scum lost! That means the consequences are on them, not Israel. Resettle them in Egypt or Saudi Arabia.
Btw, you should also keep in mind how much of that humanitarian aid is being stolen by the Hamas goons and looters, including at least half the supplies sent via that pitiful little pier of "Josip." And a much maligned Israel has contributed 500,000 tons of food and other aid!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I and others express a preference for a secular state without believing that it is an immediate prospect.
The Hamas scum are winning. A guerilla army that survives wins when the object of the war is to destroy it. Not that I am happy either about Hamas killing all those civilians in its initial attack or about this prolonged destruction and starvation now.
The Gazans who chose to support war did so because of the living conditions that had been forced on them by Israel. No one should be forcibly resettled. That would be another injustice.
"Goons" can be applied to Israeli settlers stealing land in the West Bank. Aid is looted? You mean the looters prevent it from going to the people who need it?
A much maligned Israel? Look how widely they are now condemned on the world scale. Is that all anti-semitism and nothing else? Israel contributes food and aid to the population that it is slaughtering? Better to stop the slaughter.
Paul.
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