Fenn, always angry, tells his mother that he will neither demonstrate in the passages nor throw rocks. She agrees that he is:
"'...too intelligent for that.'" (p. 87)
(Because they live inside Luna, they have passages instead of streets.)
Slow down there, folks. Too intelligent to throw rocks? Good. Too intelligent to demonstrate? I know a lot of very intelligent people who demonstrate.
That juxtaposition of demonstrating and throwing rocks is unfortunate. In a Frederik Forsyth novel (title and and context forgotten), a young man's attendance at a demonstration is interpreted as a lapse in his intelligence. Fortunately, we do not have to agree with an author to enjoy his novels!
Read The Day Of The Jackal.
This is probably sign-off for this evening. Shortly, we will watch TV news to find out what is happening on Earth Real right now. How long before the nukes fly? Which future are we heading into? Further into the Chaos?
Good night.
45 comments:
Demostrations generally don't affect governments much -- unless they decide to slaughter the demonstrators, as the Iranian government did a few months ago.
It gives the illusion of doing something, which is why it's popular.
For a contrary position see this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3.5%25_rule
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Exactly, which is why I'm disdainful about most demonstrations. For others, like the hideous demonstrations praising the atrocities of Hamas on 10/7/23, I have only the utmost scorn and loathing!
Ad astra! Sean
The world would be an even worse place than it it is there were not persistent protests against the genocide in Gaza.
I have seen both a school and an old people's home closed, then reopened, because protests continued after the closure. In the case of the school, we (pupils and volunteer teachers) occupied the building and kept it running as a school between official closing and reopening.
I can cite other examples of successful protests. Farage's party, Reform UK, has won a majority on Lancashire County Council but has backed down from some threatened closures after we had a massive march past County Hall including people who had voted for Reform but now opposed what it was doing.
Sean, your disdain is at best uninformed.
2nd last comment above:
"...than it is if there were not..."
Let's have less negative language like "disdain" etc. There are many well-informed people who disagree with you about a lot of things. We can just consider each other's ideas instead of expressing contempt for them.
Kaor, Paul!
It's no use, some demonstrations deserve only disdain and contempt. I don't share your faith in "demonstrations" or for all the "causes" they support. Certainly not anti-Israel demonstrations vilifying that nation.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
It's no use.
Some PEOPLE (not just demonstrators) deserve disapproval and opposition, not usually "disdain and contempt." I have explained my faith in some demonstrations. I do not have faith in all the "causes" that people demonstrate for.
Israel is a genocidal state.
Paul.
Read accounts of what the IDF regularly does in Gaza. Not just Fox News and National Review. I have sent you links. They have used children queueing for food as target practice. Israelis, interviewed, say, "Kill Palestinians," and mock Palestinian suffering.
There is no 'genocide' in Gaza, just a war. War means fighting, fighting means killing, and in an inhabited area civilians get killed in large numbers.
"Genocide", if it means anything at all (which nowadays it doesn't except as an epithet) means a serious attempt to exterminate a group.
Paul: the Palestinians have, over the past 140 years, consistently rejected compromise, chosen war, and tried to kill every Jew they could. That means their fate is entirely on their own heads.
I am not sure about that. The circumstances of the setting up of Israel were violent. I don't think that all Palestinians are trying to kill all Jews or that the current populations deserve all that is being visited on them.
What is terrible is (i) what is happening; (ii) that all of us get drawn into arguing the rights and wrongs of it, especially at a time when humanity needs to unite to stop destroying the environment.
As I understand it, there is more than just a war. The IDF targets civilians and levels buildings, including hospitals. It is an attempt to make the area uninhabitable and uninhabited.
Kaor, Paul!
No, those "circumstances" include fanatical Muslims like the truly hideous Grand Mufti raving about his hatred for Jews and urging all Muslims to exterminate them. Those "circumstances" include the founders of Israel ACCEPTING a very unfavorable UN partition plan award awarding Israel only the Negev desert and the Tel Aviv/Jaffa coast, with two thirds of the old British Mandate (including all of Jerusalem awarded to the so-called Palestinians. A partition REJECTED by the Arabs.
I don't care about the IDF leveling buildings, not if those buildings were used by the Hamas scum for their tunnels and as outposts for attacking Israel. If the Gazans don't like their fate they have to drive out Hamas, admit defeat, and make the best deal possible with Israel.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
As ever, your account is completely one-sided and unjust! I have emailed you accounts of Nakba and Gaza. Of course you can cite Palestinian antisemitism! The description "truly hideous" can indeed be applied to many people in this context. Of course Arabs REJECTED partition.
You don't care! "Not if..." You need to find out first if these buildings are used by Hamas. They are not. Read the accounts I have emailed.
Please stop saying "scum." These emotive terms can be applied to either side and express hate which makes the situation worse.
"IF the Gazans don't like their fate..."
Would you?
- "...they have to drive out Hamas, admit defeat and make the best deal possible with Israel."
No, they have to continue to resist the IDF.
Paul.
Paul: actually, Hamas deliberately put military targets in schools and hospitals.
I still think that the current destruction is wholesale, not justified by military targets alone. There are reports of people and homes being targeted.
Total casualties in Gaza were in the 70K range, and of those 25-30K were military. That's a low military-civilian ratio; usually in urban fighting it's 8 civilians to 1 military, as a rough guide. Note that Hamas-controlled agencies don't distinguish between civil and military casualties.
It is still going on. I receive reports of continued killing and destruction now.
That whole situation with the entire area enclosed and surrounded by security and an armed group having to plan how to break out of it is hardly normal. The group that broke out killed civilians, including (I heard it reported) two children but did not burn any babies. Lies and exaggerations were immediately reported as facts which just serves to distort everything. It is also believed and reported that the IDF allowed the breakout to occur so that they would have a pretext for entering Gaza and wreaking destruction. I try to relay what I have heard, read or been told but am cautious about this because all my experience tells me that whatever is said will be contradicted. "The truth is the first casualty" and there is something very wrong about that fact alone. In general, the whole world is in a very bad state (Ukraine, the Middle East, other conflicts) and I am not on the side of those whose aim is defend, rationalize, preserve or maintain this explosive and potentially self-destructive status quo. With me having expressed that general perspective, we can return to discussing and disagreeing about particular cases and details if we want to. (And I suppose that we will do as long as it continues.)
Kaor, Paul!
No, what happened on 10/7/23 was an intentionally genocidal attack on Israel by jihadist murderers, rapists, torturers, etc., armed and supplied by Iran. The object being to kill as many Jews as possible and conquer territory.
Wrong, the IDF did not "allow" the breakout to happen, that's conspiracy theory nonsense. What happened was far simpler, Israel got careless and overconfident about its border defenses. The plain old human tendency to blunder.
I note as well how you overlook things like Hamas thugs hiding in hospitals and schools. Including command posts. That alone strips them of any right not to be attacked by Israel.
I have scant sympathy for the Gazans as long as they continue to let Hamas rule them.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
No. (Can we stop saying that?)
Why did anyone have to break out of an open-air prison in the first place? They broke out and killed people. The latter is undeniable. It is Israel that has conquered territory.
Wrong. (Can we stop saying that?) I quoted reports about the IDF "allowing" the breakout. I do not know whether that is true and I knew that it would be contradicted. Why did anyone have to "breakout" of anywhere?
I do not overlook anything. You overlook all the reports of what the IDF is doing in Gaza now. Everyone has a right not to be attacked by Israel, a state that was founded by violence in the first place.
The Gazans will obviously support Hamas as long as it defends them from Israel.
What is the point of these exchanges?
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Rejected, Gaza was not an "open air prison." It could have become a prosperous city state after Israe evacuated it in 2006. It did not because the Hamas terrorists seized power, to use Gaza as an instrument for waging jihad against Israel.
Israel has been defending itself against murderous scum since 1948. What bothers many Israel haters is the sight of Jews refusing to be pitiable victims but daring to fight back--and winning!
I have seen OTHER reports discussing how Hamas' genocidal attack occurred because the jihadists took advantage of plain old carelessness and incompetence. That's vastly more plausible than nonsense about Israel deliberately allowing itself to be attacked. Happily, Israel rallied and crushed Hamas. Don't attribute to malice what is more simply explained by incompetence.
Reread Stirling's comments--what's going on there is a WAR, Israel has every right to stamp out Hamas. All states are founded by or maintained by the threat of violence.
The Gazans will obviously keep on suffering as long as Hamas infests them like tape worms. Drive out Hamas!
The point of these exchanges is to rebut the errors you believe.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
You believe errors!
I do not want anyone to be pitiable victims.
Of course there are contradictory reports. That is part of the conflict.
Israelis win only so long as they are funded and armed by the US for its strategic and economic purposes.
Read the reports I have sent. What is going on there is an extermination.
Hames is an elected defence organization, not a tape worm.
Paul.
Hamas.
Please read recently emailed reports.
Kaor, Paul!
What happened on 10/7/23 was a genocidal pogrom waged by Hamas terrorists who are utterly loathsome people.
Israel will survive with or without the US.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
The conflict did not start on 10/7/23. What is happening now is a genocidal pogrom waged by the IDF whom I will not describe as utterly loathsome people because that kind of language, especially when used completely one-sidedly, gets us nowhere.
I have emailed you links to clear evidence that Gaza has been an open-air prison, which Hamas broke out of, and that Israeli policies involve apartheid and genocide.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I absolutely disagree, it was Hamas which turned Gaza into an "open air prison," or better put, a cesspool of hatred, antisemitism, and jihadist fanaticism.
The Hamas scum did not "break out," they invaded Israel to wreak genocide on Jews.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Did you read the link that I emailed about how Israel has confined the population in Gaza and turned the place into what is described as an "open-air prison"? What matters here is evidence, not opinions.
Israeli settlers invade the West Bank. I have emailed links about this as well.
Please stop applying abusive terms like "scum" one-sidedly.
Paul.
I have re-sent an email.
Basically I'm indifferent to Palestinian casualties.
Individually they may not deserve to die or be mutilated, but so what?
War is a -collective- activity.
If your side refuses to compromise and make peace, you're responsible -- regardless of your individual perspective.
We didn't make distinctions when we bombed the hell out of German and Japanese cities, nor should we have. They were collectively responsible.
And yes, I have seen people die -- in large numbers. I walked past dead and dying famine victims when I was 10.
Kaor, Paul!
Rejected, what you said about Gaza and the "Palestinians." If they stubbornly persist in fighting and losing wars, they are to blame for their fate, not Israel. If they refuse to admit defeat and settle for a compromise, they are responsible.
Israel has been vastly more merciful to these Gazans than was the UK/US to Germany and Japan in WW II.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Rejected, everything you say. Can we stop expressing ourselves like this? "Palestinians" are not stubbornly fighting and losing wars. They are being massacred now. Please read information that I have emailed. Israel does not want a compromise but wants to drive out all Palestinians.
Israel is merciless. Read what Israelis are doing.
Paul.
Paul; Israel is merciless to people who are merciless to Israelis when they get the chance. That is entirely right and proper.
As I said, war is a -collective- activity. Individuals just don't count.
Soldiers are not police. They don't "find" the guilty. They just kill and destroy until the other side gives up or runs away.
I was talking once to the father of a friend of mine, who'd been in command of an armored car squadron in NW Europe in 1944-45.
He mentioned an area of Belgium where there were isolated stone-built farmsteads. The Germans fortified a number of them, though not nearly all, as a delaying tactic. You couldn't tell by looking at them.
I asked what they did. He replied that they got hull-down about a thousand yards out and plastered the farmsteads with 37mm cannon and .50 cal M2 machine guns. If the Germans were in them, they'd shoot back, and the scouting units would call in artillery or airstrikes.
"But what if it was just Belgian farmers?" I asked.
He laughed long and loud, and said:
"Oh, then they just died. Better them than us, sonny, better them than us."
I agreed.
Kaor, Paul!
Israel is merciless because her enemies are merciless. Because that is what wars are like. Reread what Stirling said above, and Anderson's preface to SEVEN CONQUESTS.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Israel is merciless to all Palestinians. Read the reports I have sent. This is war against a population, widely condemned, and we do not have to tolerate it or to accept this barbarism forever.
Paul.
Paul: Most Palestinians want to destroy Israel and kill/expel its Jews. Therefore they're getting what they deserve.
They could have had their own state in 1947, by accepting the UN Partition plan.
For that matter, they could have gotten a state of their own on 80% of Mandate Palestine in the 1930's -- the British offered them that.
They refused and killed every Jew they could.
As I said, they've got it coming.
Not all of them as individuals living now have it coming!
I have seen evidence that there is a genocidal culture in Israel, for example actively blocking aid into Gaza.
Unfortunately, anti-Zionism becomes anti-semitism in many cases. Then the former is identified with the latter.
What many campaigners want is a single secular state with full equality for everyone. That involves ending the Zionist state but not killing or expelling anyone.
Kaor, Paul!
Your dream of "...a single secular state with full equality for everyone" is not going to happen because the vast majority of Palestinians don't want it if that means the despised Jews have the same status. Which means I agree with Stirling's comments.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
We do not know what is not going to happen. The Zionists do not want the despised Palestinians to have the same status. I agree with my comments. Read email links that I have forwarded.
Paul.
Paul: the Israelis have abundant reason to distrust and despise the Palestinians, because the Palestinians have spent the last 140 years trying to kill them all.
Mainstream Zionism was pro-partition for a long time. Our state over here, your state over there, a compromise.
The Palestinians consistently rejected that. Now Zionism does too, after lots of painful experience.
So the Palestinians' fate is on their own heads, because they supported leaders who told them they could have everything they wanted -- mountains of dead Jews, first and foremost.
Being weak and victimized doesn't make you virtuous. It has no moral weight.
It just means you're weak and can't accomplish your goals.
Which, in the Palestinian context, mean "dead Jews".
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