Marcus Aurelius agrees with Artorius that toleration of all forms of worship that do not upset the public order is a sound policy but thinks that there will still be problems with Christians because they refuse to participate in sacrifices to the Emperor and Rome. Artorius replies that, as with the Jews, Christians could be permitted to pray for the Emperor. He also clarifies that Christian rituals are not cannibalistic feasts and explains them in a way that reminds the Emperor of Orphic beliefs and Eleusinian Mysteries. Men seeking the Infinite:
"'...find common aspects of it.'" (p. 289)
Persecution of Christians might be halted and persecution by Christians prevented. How symbolic is it that a Jew named Josephus has sponsored Artorius? Also, how symbolic is the name "Arthur"?
(Marcus Aurelius in this novel, like Augustus and Lycius in Neil Gaiman's "August," is an Initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries.)
Artorius seems to be individually wise because he is able to encapsulate the wisdom of subsequent centuries and millennia.
21 comments:
As the time-travellers comment, it helps to have much more history behind you...
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
I did "frown" a bit at Artorius Zwinglian understanding of the most holy Eucharist. I had to remind myself a lapsed Baptist like Artorius would not be likely to talk about transubstantiation.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I noticed that. It is partly a matter of how Artorius understood it and partly a matter of what would make sense to Marcus Aurelius: the right balance between not misrepresenting Christianity too much and (most importantly) trying to head off all that future persecution.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
I agree, what you said about how Artorius would understand the Eucharist, given his background. Yes, a brief first time explanation of Christianity to Marcus Aurelius would need to be given in terms comprehensible to him.
Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire tended to be localized, sporadic, and short lived. The first Empire wide persecution wouldn't occur until Decius's reign (249-51), during the Third Century Crisis.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean: yeah, it was sporadic before the 3rd century crisis... but then, Christians were much less numerous then.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Probably not much more than about 150,000 in Marcus Aurelius' reign. Then the chaos of the Third Century Crisis shook the confidence of many in the Empire!
Ad astra! Sean
Here is an interesting series of web pages on why Jews and (by implication) later on Christians were regarded with hostility by the polytheists around them.
https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=7458
Click on the right arrow at the bottom of the illustrations to get to the next page.
It is part of a long series on the development of ideas related to law.
Start here.
https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=5255
Kaor, Jim!
I looked up these comics, but they said nothing new I had not already known about the common reasons pagans had for hating Jews or Christians in Roman times. Moreover, I would add that Roman rulers, beginning with Julius Caesar and Augustus, made many concessions to the Jews. Examples being the recently discussed matter of how the bodies of executed Jews were to be returned to families/friends before sunset for burial. Another was how Jews were allowed to sacrifice to God FOR the welfare of the Emperor and Rome, meaning Jews were exempted from being required to sacrifice to the pagan gods.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean: the Romans made many concessions, but the Jews kept rebelling until they got it through their heads that God wasn't going to put a finger in the military stew.
Kaor, Mr. Stirling!
Ha, amusingly put! I was reminded of how a Roman senior centurion in Chapters Twelve, Thirteen, or Fourteen of TTTT, reflected on how, unlike the ox-stupid Germans, Jewish rebels were clever, tricky, very dangerous fighters. And that reminded me of how Israeli counterterrorism cleverly boobytrapped the pagers of hundreds of the Hezbullah vermin in Lebanon--and took out hundreds of those evil persons. Good riddance!
Ad astra! Sean
!
Kaor, Paul!
I have nothing but loathing for evil and vile people like the Hamas/Hezbullah terrorists. The brutality and savagery of Hamas' attack on Israel on 10/7, with its massacres, rapes, torture, and kidnapping of hundreds of Jews, was exactly the same as the savagery shown by the Marcomannic barbarians at that Pannonian farm in Chapter 12 of TO TURN THE TIDE.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Why did Hamas have to break out of a prison camp? Did the IDF leave the way clear for them to do it? How many rapes and tortures were there on 10/7? How many Israelis were killed by the IDF under their Hannibal Directive? Hamas DID kill and kidnap on 10/7. Your account is completely one-sided. Surely the Marcomanni were far more barbaric?
The reports that I receive from Lebanon show Hezbullah killing IDF soldiers who kill civilians. In that situation, it is the IDF who are terrorists. Your account is completely one-sided.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Disagree, you are defending barbarians, jihadists, Jew haters. Hamas.Hezbullah are just as bad as the Marcomanni.
Whatever Israel's faults, it is vastly better than the savages lusting to exterminate Jews.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Disagree. I am not defending barbarians, jihadists, Jew haters. Certainly not the latter! Many Jews join Palestine Solidarity marches. I met a large group of them and shook hands with one. Palestinians are not barbarians. Yes, they include jihadists whom I do not support.
Whatever Israel's faults! They are many. It is run by Zionists who are racists.
"Savages lusting to exterminate Jews"? Appalling language. IDF loot, commit war crimes and shoot Palestinians for sport. (Let's keep words like "lust" out of our terminology.)
I have asked questions and raised points about 10/7 which you have not answered.
Paul.
Please read links that I have emailed.
Kaor, Paul!
I don't care about those Jews you mentioned--the Nazis found Jews willing to work for them.
Not "appalling" language, ACCURATE language. Which is what many leaders of Hamas/Hezbullah have said. And what the Hamas monsters did on 10/7.
I have SCANT sympathy for the Gazans/Palestinians. As long as they let fanatical jihadists/Jew haters be their leaders, they are reaping what they sowed. Israel has tried over and over and over for decades to make peace, often offering generous compromise terms, only to be rebuffed over and over and over and viciously attacked by these savages.
Ad asta! Sean
Sean,
You don't care if the evidence is against what you say? Palestine Solidarity is not Nazis. That comparison is unacceptable.
Accurate? OK. I have a friend who calls Trump a "monster." We can continue to swap insults.
You have not answered my questions about 10/7.
Gazan leaders are Jew haters?
Look what the IDF is doing to civilians in Gaza, Lebanon and the West Bank now. I have emailed you news reports.
Israel tries to make peace? It continues killing civilians during every "ceasefire." It is doing that now.
Can we not just discuss this instead of having a verbal version of WWIII? I do not appreciate being accused of supporting "Jew haters" since I campaign against antisemitism and attend an annual Holocaust Memorial event with local Jewish people and others. Last year our event was attended by the Deputy Lord Lieutenant of Lancashire who made the point that he is two rungs down from the King, showing how seriously the British Establishment takes our Memorials.
Paul.
Years ago, the British National Party marched through Preston. On each side of their march there walked a line of police. Beyond the police on both sides were anti-racists who walked along challenging the BNP. Over the heads of the police, I engaged in argumentation with one fascist. (I always appreciate the presence of the police who prevent physical contact. They once arrested a fascist who ran straight at me.) I asked this fascist whether he was a worker, whether he worked for a living, and said that, if so, he should seek common cause with his fellow workers irrespective of race or religion. He replied, "Been reading your Jew papers, have you? Been reading your Jew Papers?" Was this man expressing "legitimate concerns" about foreigners entering the country? No. He was expressing Jewish Conspiracy theory. I opposed his antisemitism then as now yet people who never demonstrate against racism, who even deny that racism exists, tell me that I am anti-semitic. Something is very wrong if such falsehoods have to be uttered and repeated.
Kaor, Paul!
Refused, you are supporting the wrong side. Yes, the Hamas criminals dominating the Gazans are Jew haters. And that includes the bosses of Hezbullah. Both of whom were armed by the thugs in Tehran.
Refused, what you said about the IDF, because what is happening is a WAR, not a mere police action. And Israel is reacting to continued terrorist attacks.
Yes, Israel has tried hard to make peace, starting as long ago as 1948 when the leaders of what became Israel accepted a very unfavorable UN partition plan awarding Israel only the Tel Aviv/Jaffa coast and the Negeb. A plan rejected by the Arabs. Every effort since then has also been wrecked by the terrorists.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Refused, everything. I am supporting the right side. Zionists are Palestinian haters. What is happening is not a WAR but a policy of making a territory uninhabitable by destroying buildings and killing civilians. Read the news reports that I have emailed.
Israel wages continual war, consistently breaks ceasefires and refuses to withdraw from territory which it has illegally occupied. This is resisted and you label any resistance fighters "terrorists." Israel is a terrorist state armed by the US to serve its interests in the oil-rich Middle East. Without the oil, the US would not be there.
Paul.
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