Starting to read or reread a new chapter means adjusting to a whole new period as well as to a new location. This makes demands on the reader. XII features someone called "Deathless" who is:
"...the mightiest of all shamans..." (p. 241)
- so we start to infer where we are and also to expect to meet another immortal.
A boy asks a berdache (unrecognized by my computer) to carry a message to the shaman. The President of the United States has just decreed that there are only two gender identities. There is a continual interplay between Poul Anderson's works and what is happening on Earth Real while we are reading them.
We will have to tackle the sixteen pages of XII tomorrow, Sunday, when we might have time to learn what Deathless has to deal with which I have completely forgotten. It will be very different from the issues addressed by Richelieu, Tu Shan and others back through the history of the world. We are racing through history into futurity as the Time Traveler put it.
26 comments:
Kaor, Paul!
I remember that word "berdache," which I didn't understand. I puzzled and puzzled over it, wondering if it meant a man suffering from Frolich's syndrome. Which I thought of from reading Allen Drury's novel A GOD AGAINST THE GODS, in which he suggested the peculiar appearance of Amonhotep IV Akhenaten could be explained by that Pharaoh inflicted with that disorder.
And President Trump is right, there are only two sexes for humans, male and female. And he's also right to begin sweeping away the "transsexual" bull twaddle.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
There are two biological sexes but many different social norms and individual psychologies. People should not have to fit in or conform. If they were free to express themselves without encountering stereotypes and prejudice, then there would less recourse to twaddle. We make problems unnecessarily.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
We agree on there being only two sexes, male and female. The rest I do not agree with, not if means tolerating disgusting depravities--like the monsters who advocate sexual abuse of children. A start to restoring good sense has to start somewhere, so sweep away nonsense like "transsexualism."
Ad astra! Sean
One of my objections to the 'Trans' ideology is:
Why not just be a man who like doing lots of stereotypically 'feminine' things, or a woman who likes doing lots of stereotypically 'masculine' things. Aside from the existence of jerks who would give people a hard time for that.
'Trans' seems to me to be a wrongheaded response to the stupid rules that this is for men to do and that is for women to do.
Destroy the pink & blue boxes for activities, rather than making absurd claims of being a woman with a penis or a man with a vagina.
Kaor, Jim!
I partly agree and disagree. That is, silly "rules" about what men and men should do are silly, but not without some basis in fact. That is, men and women do tend to think and act differently from each other in ways that seems "customary" for one sex or the other. With plenty of overlap!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I did not say anything to tolerate disgusting depravities like abuse of children.
There is no link between that and "trans-sexuality." That latter has to be considered and discussed in its own right, not dismissed as nonsense or, even, worse, identified with abuse of minors.
Paul.
Jim,
Why do some people not just want to act and behave like the opposite gender but also to do their best to change their bodies physically? I don't know. This needs to be understood. And, of course, nothing can be understood in a society of confusion, denunciation, irrational hate etc? I hope that we can work towards a better society in future.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
You did not say a word about tolerating disgusting monsters--and I had no intention of saying/implying you. But I do think the "attitude" you seem to favor could possibly lead to that.
No direct link between the NAMBLA types and so-called "transsexuality," except long term, in the sense that it could lead to a loss of clear, hard, rational thinking in such matters.
One hard fact is this: drugs and surgery cannot and will not changes males into females or females into male because one's sex is genetically determined at conception. Persons suffering from sex confusion near therapy, with the goal of them accepting what they are, male or female. Not to undergo drug/surgical regimens causing irreversible damage. Also, in many cases, these cares involve teenagers only about 14/15/16 years old, and I suspect this might be only a phase they are going thru, to be soon outlived.
Last, if such persons stubbornly insist on these drugs/surgeries to "change sex" they should be at least 21 years old and pay for them with their own money, not foist the costs on the taxpayers. And their legal, real sex remains what their DNA says they are.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
That is a much more reasoned response. But I do not favour an attitude that could lead to tolerating abuse.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
Good, but I do believe some, not all, "attitudes" can unintentionally lead the way to bad consequences.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I have no definite views on this issue. I hope (and believe) that it will settle down somehow after this present period of turmoil. Certainly anyone needs a great deal of reflection, advice, guidance, personal development and maturity before they decide to embark on any major physical changes to their own bodies.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
And such "changes," in this context, will not change anyone's sex.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
That is also a very basic point. Some people want to and are able to change how they are perceived by and how they interact with others but everyone needs to understand the different levels on which they exist from the genes up.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
But I will rebel against irrationalities like being told "Robert is now a woman, so call her 'Roberta.' " If I know Robert is male I will refuse to pretend to believe he magically changed from male to female!
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
Well, you don't REFUSE to believe. You simply DON'T believe. I think that we should call people what they want to be called even if, for a while at least, it seems awkward and contrived. These issues won't be resolved by adamant refusals to acknowledge how other people see things.
Paul.
Wishing doesn't make it so, wanting doesn't make it so, and believing doesn't make it so.
There's a lady in Norway who keeps petitioning the national legislature to be legally reclassified as a cat, and in the meantime tries to look and act as much like a cat as possible.
Guess what: she's not a cat.
There are people who think they're cats, or God, or the reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte.
I seen no reason to pander to delusions; and if that hurts the deluded person's feelings, so what?
Your emotions are your own affair; they confer no rights on you, nor any obligations on anyone else.
I am conflicted on this issue. I hope that it settles down and sorts itself out soon. (But hoping won't make it happen!)
Kaor, Paul!
Exactly, what Stirling said! I have no time or patience for this "transsexual" nonsense. Nor will I cooperate in enabling anyone afflicted with this delusion.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
And it is not all nonsense although I accept that some of it sure looks like it. We have got to understand why some people feel like that. I do not understand it yet so I do not tell people that how they feel is nonsense. It is too early to judge.
A single woman that claims she's a cat? Nonsense indeed. But something goes wrong inside people to make them think such things. She obviously needs help of some kind if that is possible.
Paul.
Kaor, Paul!
We have to agree to disagree. It's as absurd and delusional for a man to claim to be a woman as it is for that Norwegian lady to claiming to be a cat. And you can't help people who refuse to admit they are delusional.
Ad astra! Sean
Sean,
I can meet and talk and listen to transsexuals. I have not done enough of this yet. Thinking that you are a different kind of human being is certainly different from thinking that you are another species.
Paul.
I posted (with attribution) one of Stirling's comments in this thread on another blog
Someone who frequently comments there posted in reply a short essay worthy of Stirling.
https://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2024/miscellany-room-12/
comment #353
Artymorty
February 10, 2025 at 8:18 pm
@Jim
On the “berdache” thing,
A couple points to note about “gender roles” in indigenous cultures:
The most important distinction between indigenous cultures and modern Western culture is the deep social and psychological distinction between collectivism and individualism. Virtually all indigenous cultures were (and are, in the case of those that still exist) collectivist, which is to say that everyone within them was/is raised to conceive of themself as a part of a whole — that the tribe or community itself consists of the “individual” and that each of us serves a small role within it. In a tribal collective, we are only a small part of the “person” that is conceptualized as the shared sense of connectedness with the collective. In a deep psychological sense, the tribe itself is the “individual” and one’s sense of purpose and accomplisment in life is derived from serving the tribe — ably and nobly doing one’s duty to the collective.
In this context, males and females in indigenous North America were designated right from birth into two separate channels of upbringing, to prepare them for the limited menu of roles available to women within the collective such as foraging, housekeeping, and child-rearing, and the limited menu of roles available to men within the collective such as hunting, governing, and tribal defence/warfare. So-called “third gender” roles such as berdache represented males whose demeanors were deemed ill-fit to serve the roles of hunters, governors, or warriors, because these men failed to socialize into the aggressive masculine behaviour profile and social role that males were expected to perform. In the modern context, we recognize these males to have been feminine, and most likely homosexual, men, but in the context of collectivism, they failed to meet the utilitarian standards associated with manhood, so they failed to be categorized as men at all.
(comment continued)
But, indigenous cultures being very efficient with their resources, rather than exiling or executing feminine young men, they often found alternate uses for them within the collective. If a young male was perceived to be failing to sufficiently masculinize himself during his upbringing, he was re-categorized as a “berdache” — a separate “gender role” from both the masculine “man” gender role and the feminine “woman” one (he surely wasn’t a woman either, because he couldn’t bear children) — and he was given an alternative “third menu” of roles he could serve within the collective. This menu consisted generally of being put in charge of rituals and spiritualism — he became the village shaman — or he was assigned an alternative kind of household management — something akin to a “spinster aunt” who helps with childraising and other duties within a sibling’s household. Berdaches’ costume options were designated as separate from men’s, too, and they were generally more in line with the costumery typically prescribed to females within the tribe.
So feminine men were given a “special” status within many indigenous tribes (at least the resource-conserving ones that don’t simply choose to quietly execute the “runt” gay males instead), and they were often treated as extra spiritual and more in touch with the supernatural world. (This practice has even carried over somewhat into the modern Western world, for example with many feminine homosexual men going into the clergy because they couldn’t bring themselves to marry and settle into a straight household, or find any other comfort within the straight social roles that society makes available to men.)
To some degree, gender stereotype defying females also got designated as “third gender” or “berdache” and they, too, were given a small alternative menu of social roles they could perform within their indigenous tribes. But that was a less common occurrence because, alas, many tribes wanted to make sure every adult capable of bearing children (i.e., every female) got slotted into the social role that made that happen.
Another important distinction about “berdache” is that it wasn’t a choice that any male or female could freely make: these were collectivist cultures in which free individual choice was so limited as to be almost an alien concept. Males were desginated “berdache” by collective consensus (or decree by the tribal chief or council), by virtue of demonstrating their inability to live up to masculine “gender roles” (and to a lesser degree females were designated berdache by demonstrating an inability to live up to feminine gender roles) and demonstrating their suitability for the spiritual one instead.
It’s a common misunderstanding among people who have been raised in the modern individualist context that the existence of “berdache” in the North American indigenous past is proof that people back then were more free to “gender express” than they are today. That couldn’t be further from the truth. Modern cultural individualism is founded in the Enlightenment principle of individual freedom, which strives to dispose of the concept altogether that any one of us is born into a limited menu of roles designed to serve the tribe or clan or fiefdom we were born into. Individualism stems from a much more advanced, more complex, and more large-scale organization of society, which posits that if we all coordinate en masse and offer more social mobility to everyone, that each individual may find his or her way to the role in life that best satisfies their own personal desires, and that they may set their own life goals as a result. A pauper could in principle become President; a woman could become a firefighter; the son of a railroad tycoon could find his bliss as a Spanish Flamenco guitar teacher or whatever. And feminine males and masculine females are free to pursue whatever goals they like, because in a big enough society, there will always be a role for them that maximizes their chances at satisfaction and fulfillment in life.
(continued some more)
The trajectory of liberalism in the West has been mostly to make strides toward such an ideal world. That is, until transgender ideology came along, which represents a massive lurch back towards the idea of assigned “gender roles” at birth and strict social categories based on sex.
Transgender ideology is a terrible conflation of the strict division of sex in terms of its role in human reproduction and sexuality (in which context sex is indeed fixed and unchangeable), with the old outdated strict division of sex in terms of limited assigned roles within small tribal communities that struggled to survive in harsh environments. It’s an absolute wrong turn. It’s a complete misunderstanding of the foundational principles of the Enlightenment, of humanism, and of progress itself.
Kaor, Paul!
And I am also skeptical so called "transsexuals" actually believe they are women. Some, like "Lia" Thomas pretend to be women because it's easier to win sporting awards and prizes unfairly competing against women who are not as strong as males.
No, sex is genetically determined at conception, XY for males and XX for females.
Ad astra! Sean
Jim,
I think that the transgender stuff is about greater self-expression but I do not fully understand it.
Paul.
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